Pirates Of the Vistula thoughts

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by weswood

There's some things about this adventure that have always bothered me. I can't find my copy this instant so I might have some details wrong but....

The Tugboat- yes, I've seen pictures of pointy bowed tugs. But I live near the Houston Ship Channel, I think it's the 3rd largest inland port in the U.S.A. Every tug I've ever seen has a squared off bow. I'm not an expert, but I see tugs at least once a week, pushing everything from barges to cargo & tanker ships.

Another thing about the Vistula Queen is it being a diesel tug converted to steam. Okay, I realize it's a game. But this came up previously on this forum and someone talked to a marine engineer (or something) and was told it would be easier to scrap the diesel and start over for a steam engine. Plus what's always bugged me is the funnel aft of the wheelhouse. Why does a diesel powered craft have that nice ready built funnel????

Then there's the mission. Head down the river to rescue Adam's family & any other survivors they can find. So they're taking a tugboat that doesn't have enough cabin space for the characters, plus a half decked barge? Ooookay.

My idea is dump the tug/barge and have Adam captain a restored paddleboat steamer, similar to what cruised the Mississipi in Mark Twain's time. Already steam powered, plenty of cabin space, easier to repair a wooden hulled vessel than a steel hulled vessel.

I don't know if Poland ever had such boats but I can't see why not.

What's ya'lls thoughts on my idea?

The tugs you see in Houston are barge tugs, intended for inland waterways and harbors...

Adam's tug may be a coastal tug, it would explain the bow difference. Still...why is it so far up the river? As for the funnel...a lot of tugs have the "traditional" funnel, its fitted with air intakes, the diesel exhaust is a pipe that runs up the backside of the funnel....

[simonmark6]

Lots of tugs have pointed prows. The ones that work the river by me do but they are littoral rather than pure riverine craft. The Vistula Queen could have doubled as an ice breaker which would give it a reason to be that far upriver when blunt nosed tugs would be better.

As for the engines, you are correct, the conversion suggested in the book is fantasy. The tug is quite old though and probably had a steam engine originally, if I was running the game I'd have the diesels replaced by a salvaged steam engine.

There is a paddle wheel boat in Krakow, it's called the legenda but from what I can tell it isn't a steamer, merely a modern engine powered replica. this might need a lot of work too and doesn't have the cabin or cargo space that Adam needs. Add to that the fact that it is top heavy and would be made more so by any defences or armaments and that makes it nearly as unfeasible as the funny tug.

When you look at the whole scenario realistically, it gets thinner and thinner: the tug and barge can't really deal with the refugees and in the long run, why the hell are people still living in Warsaw anyway? I would have to assume that Adam is actually mad and that the whole mission is doomed to failure.

Or, you can suspend some disbelief and have fun, the problem is that if you have to suspend too much disbelief, it may no longer be fun for you.

[kcdusk]

I better get my thoughts out here before Reallus turns up!

1. Pointed or wide-nosed bow, meh, doesnt matter. Ones in Australia are pointy. Maybe wide nose is a European thing.

2. Diesel or steam? I cannot remember but i reckon either in "Pirates" or "Going Home" they talk about either the Tug or Train as having something different about it, suspend belieft etc as to how its powered. Either way, as a GM i'd be happy to make the tug diesel or steam powered because either way maintaining fuel is going to be a challange and thats what the game is about.

3. Position of funnels? Too detailed for me. Dont care. Maybe its a Eurpean thing.

4. Tugboat + half decked out barge? Well, its T2K. I think its the only option they have. You could poke "mate, theres got to be a better way" holes in almost any of the scenarios. I think the idea was to give you a mode of transport (tug) and a trailer type platform (barge) that isnt quite fit for purpose and have the PCs work with it. Heavy equipment verse room for people? A way to have PCs have to dump some gear. Also, a fun part, a chance to deck out the tug and barge with armaments and defensive positions. Non-combat role play and skills required but you can still get a taste of preparing for combat. After fitting out both tug and barge the PCs have to live with their dreamboat or nightmare for the rest of the adventure. Personally i really liked this aspect of the game.

5. You could decide to get a big paddleboat Weswood. As a GM i'd love it if a group of players wanted to play that out. Just like in the great race though, it has its own pros and cons. You'd have to persued the old coot to ditch his tug, find a paddleboat, make it river & battle worthy and hope she got under bridges or around fallen ones. I'd be thinking a paddleboat is too big a target with no "hardness" about it that the tug has. Not as manouverable. No speed. Great dining room though!

No problems with your thoughts Weswood. Personally i dont worry about minor (to me) details like shape of tug nose or funnels. I think steam or diesel question doesnt matter because in either case i think you'd be scrounging wood/coal/diesel the while trip. And i like players who think a bit outside the square like considering something other than the tug, even though in this case i'd still go the tug (but i enjoyed thinking about other ideas).

If you dont like the idea of going to warsay, rescuing people etc then move on to another town/scenario. Or if its morw the means of the rescue, run with your paddlesteamer idea.

Its T2K. Lots of stuff is happening that doesnt make sense in the Pre-T2K world.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The tugs you see in Houston are barge tugs, intended for inland waterways and harbors...

Adam's tug may be a coastal tug, it would explain the bow difference. Still...why is it so far up the river? As for the funnel...a lot of tugs have the "traditional" funnel, its fitted with air intakes, the diesel exhaust is a pipe that runs up the backside of the funnel....

I think somewhere that both the tug, and the main combat ship of Black Baron fleet were both started out as being able to be used in Coastal work and River work. Dependent on where the tug could find work and where the gun ship was needed. Ironic was that the old Austria-Hungry Navy was largely River based organization in WWI. Also for the most part the Russia Navy before WWI had some sea going for projection force but we know how that turned out for them around 1905.

Many of the European powers through the centuries have fluctuated from having deep water naval power to something resembling a coastal defense.

[dragoon500ly]

Have to disagree with you here, the old Imperial Austria-Hungerian Navy actually had a much larger deep sea navy, they certainly gave the Italian Navy quite a run during in WWI.

The river gunboats actually belonged to the Imperial & Royal Army of Austria-Hungray. They spent most of their war tearing up the Romanians.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Have to disagree with you here, the old Imperial Austria-Hungerian Navy actually had a much larger deep sea navy, they certainly gave the Italian Navy quite a run during in WWI.

The river gunboats actually belonged to the Imperial & Royal Army of Austria-Hungray. They spent most of their war tearing up the Romanians.

Then my mistake for thinking an history book would have it right...lol

[Panther Al]

Heh... The Austrian-Hungarian Navy Pre-WW1 wasn't too bad. Not a first rate navy, no, but it most assuredly was no joke either. Hard to claim Second Rate for that matter, but, where it counted from the A-H point of view, it was all that was needed: At the time, you couldn't go into the Adriatic without the A-H letting you. Of course, that rule didn't apply to the RN, for the RN was *the* 800 pound gorilla of the worlds navies.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Then my mistake for thinking an history book would have it right...lol

A US historybook...then there is the mistake!

Been doing some research for a Fear God and Dreadnought campaign, the AH Navy was a hell of a lot more active then the history books talk about. From some of the Italian sources, while no major battleship fights, the naval war between them was a intense series of cruiser/destroyer/torpedo boat actions right up until 11/11/18. And the AH had the upper hand.

The whole thing with WWI research is that if it doesn't involve the Western Front or Turky, then there is very little info that is easily available. Most textbooks don't mention the fighting in the Far East at all; might have a paragraph or two on the African Campaign; may have a chapter on Turky and the Near East; only mention in a sentence or two, the fighting in the Balkans and then devote the rest of the section to the Western Front.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

A US historybook...then there is the mistake!

Been doing some research for a Fear God and Dreadnought campaign, the AH Navy was a hell of a lot more active then the history books talk about. From some of the Italian sources, while no major battleship fights, the naval war between them was a intense series of cruiser/destroyer/torpedo boat actions right up until 11/11/18. And the AH had the upper hand.

The whole thing with WWI research is that if it doesn't involve the Western Front or Turky, then there is very little info that is easily available. Most textbooks don't mention the fighting in the Far East at all; might have a paragraph or two on the African Campaign; may have a chapter on Turky and the Near East; only mention in a sentence or two, the fighting in the Balkans and then devote the rest of the section to the Western Front.

Yeah, but the same with many WWII books. Mostly Europe and the western front. All other aren't quite nearly as extensively cover.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah, but the same with many WWII books. Mostly Europe and the western front. All other aren't quite nearly as extensively cover.

You always hear the quote that the winners write the history books....that isn't at all. The researchers only go to were the good beer and food are!