State Guard Equipment and Vehicles

[rcaf_777]

Here is something that Canadian Army and I cam up with for us in my State Guard Adventure

State Guard Equipment and Vehicles

Equipment:

Battle Dress Uniform (BDU)
• 1x Civilian BDU Top
• 1x Civilian BDU Pants
• 1x Military Surplus Rigger Belt
• 2x Civilian Boots (black)
• 1x Military Surplus Patrol Cap
• 1x Military Surplus T-shirt (sand)
• 1x Military Surplus Basic Poncho
• 1x Military Surplus M65 Field Jacket

State Guard Web Gear Combo Set
• 1x USGI Pistol Belt
• 2x M14 Pouches
• 1x Compass/First Aid Pouch
• 1x Canteen Cover w/New 1qt Canteen
• 1x USGI Nylon "Y" Harness
• 1x Pistol Holster (Officers)

Officer and NCO Additions to Field Gear:
• 1x Military Surplus Binoculars
• 1x Civilian Lensatic Compass

Officer and NCO Field Gear
0-6 Nothing
7 Civilian Communications Device
8 Civilian GPS Device
9 Civilian Night Vision Device
10 Civilian FLIR (Forward Looking Infrared) Device

Individual Field Gear
0-8 Nothing
9 Civilian Body Armor
10 Military Surplus NBC Detection and Safety Suit

Individual Weapons:

Rifle
0-7 M14 Rifle
8 Ruger Mini-14 Rifle (5.56mm NATO)
9 M1 Garand Rifle/M1 Carbine Rifle (7.62mm NATO)
10 M1903A3 Springfield Rifle

Secondary Weapon
0-8 Personnel Semi-Auto Pistol (9mm)
9 Colt M1991A1
10 M3A1 Submachine Gun

Individual Special Weapon Option
0-7 No Weapon
8 Remington 870 Shotgun
9 M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle
10 M79 Grenade Launcher


Machine Gun Option (For Group )

0-8 No Weapon
9 M1919 Browning Machine Gun
10 M1917 Browning Machine Gun

Group Vehicles:

Boats Option

0-6 Boston Whaler
7-9 RHIB
10 Patrol Boat, River

Vehicles Option

1 Motorcycle
2 All-Terrain Vehicle
3 Scout Vehicle (i.e. M151 MUTT)
4 Light Multi-Role Vehicle (i.e. Humvee)
5 Logistics Vehicle (i.e. M39)
6 Light Truck (i.e. M880)
7 Medium Truck (i.e. M35)
8 Heavy Truck w/ Trailer (i.e. M915)
9 Light Armored Vehicles (LAV) (i.e. Cadillac Gage Commando)
10 Heavy Armored Vehicles (i.e. Tank)

[dragoon500ly]

Not a bad list....

But please remember that the State Guards get the left over, worn out crap that the National Guard can't find a use for....

Very doubtful that Mini14s would be in the old arms room as they were never an issue weapon.

M-1 Garand and M-1 Carbine use different ammunition, the carbine uses the .30-caliber Winchester. Still, I can see M-1 and M-2 Carbines (the M-2 is the selective fire version) in an armory.

In spite of the current love affair with the "Wonder 9" it would be more likely for M-1911A1s to be with State Guard. The Mississippi and Alabama State Guards also have a selection of M-1917 Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers chambered for the .45 ACP round as well as several Smith & Wesson revolvers in .38 Special.

One thing I can tell you for sure, the State Guard would have no access to armored vehicles of any kind with the very slim chance if the CO happened to own a Wells Fargo armored car...

State Guard doesn't wear BDUs. They wear the older M-1968 olive-drab fatigues as well as DMS combat boots. Field gear is surplus ALICE web gear. Don't know about civilian compasses, most state guardsmen are retired military and they can purchase military compasses from the PX/BX, Clothing Sales, not to mention Brigade Quartermaster and the Cavalry Store for fairly reasonable prices.

M-1 Helmets and M1968 flak vests are available with some guards units, for the helmets I'd call it as a 5-10 roll, for a vest a 9-10 roll.

And last but not least, no NBC suits....but a chance of an old M-17 NBC mask with training filters.

As one State Guardsman told me, "we're the last line of defense, right after the Boy and Girl Scouts are called up!"

[HorseSoldier]

M14 mag pouches would be in short supply, if available at all, by the Twilight War timeframe. Troops would probably have to make do with standard "universal" M16 mag pouches and work around. (Smarter guys/units might barter some canvas pouches or bandoliers from local tailors by the 2000 time frame, though).

Edit to add: Some experimental data (with FAL mags, but same-same really for M14 mags) I just checked from my box of unused TA-50. An M16 3x30 ALICE mag pouch will hold two 20 round 7.62mm mags without drama. People using them for that might want to stuff a spare field dressing or cravat or two in the bottom of the pouch to make the mags ride higher and easier to access. An ALICE canteen pouch can hold four of them with some decent retention from the snaps. I don't have a claymore bag handy, but you can probably carry more M14 mags than are comfortable to have hanging from one strap on your shoulder in one.

Also -- on the weapons list, I'd drop the 1903A3, Garand and M1 Carbine from the list entirely. Ammo to support any of those was, if I'm not mistaken, no longer in the inventory except in tiny/remnant quantities (7th SFG in that time frame could get 30 Carbine for fam fire with M1 Carbines, but I think most of the inventory had been divested as part of foreign aid or just aged out of serviceability. 30-06 was given to CMP and that was about it.) Same problem for the BARs and 1919 machineguns (though some USN Mk 21 7.62 conversions might be in a warehouse somewhere circa 1997).

I'd recommend substituting the M16EZ on the list personal weapon list, and make the exotics include stuff that might have been inherited from other governmental agencies or legacy small arms still in the active inventory. The M3 grease guns were still on limited issue in that time frame to guys like M88 crews, so I'd take that off the secondary list and make it a possible personal weapon. The Mini-14 is good, I think -- not USGI for the .mil, but it was in service with the Federal corrections/prisons guys and some local law enforcement. MP5 and Uzis, which were in service with various local law enforcement and federal agencies could be on the list also, just that basic "whatever can be scrounged" stuff.

I'd make shotguns a possible primary gun, also -- not ideal at all, but a smart PC might trade up for something better soon as possible.

1 -- M16A2
2-4 -- M14
5-7 -- M16EZ
8 -- SMG sub table (1-7 M3 grease gun, 8-9 MP5, 10 Uzi)
9 -- Rifle subtable (1 M21 sniper rifle, 2-7 Mini-14, 8 308 conversion Garand, 9 HK-53, 10 Players choice of semi-auto only foreign import or common civilian rifle, Rem 700, Lever Action 30-30, etc)
10 -- Shotgun subtable (1 -- HK CAW, 2-8 Rem 870/Mossberg 500, 9 Civilian Semi-Auto, 10 Civilian double barrel)

[Webstral]

I think a lot of things are possible, provided the ref can offer some halfway decent explanation. As a non-appointed champion of the highly unlikely, I find it difficult to tell another designer that something can’t happen—especially when it comes to equipment ending up in unexpected places. For instance, some of the items that seem quite unlikely to be with a randomly-generated State Defense Force (SDF) might have their likelihood of encounter or availability adjusted to one chance in 100 instead of 1 chance in 10. I’ll try to give some examples from my own work to show how this might work out (when do I ever not quote myself?).

The Vermont State Guard, which in April 2001 is almost entirely contained within the Vermont State Guard Civil Defense Brigade (VSGCDB), basically drew its equipment from everything that was left by forces moved out of Vermont in mid-1998 in response to the situation in the Pacific Northwest and the American Southwest. Under orders from First US Army, regular forces in Vermont, along with Reserve and National Guard forces, took pretty much everything that wasn’t nailed down. First US Army took all of the AFV, all of the field artillery, all of the air defense weapons, almost all of the chemical gear, almost all of the commo gear, and so on. As a result, the Green Jackets [Rifle Regiment] use a mix of M16s, M14s, M1s, hunting rifles, and shotguns as personal weapons. The table rcaf generated would have to modified accordingly.

The Granite Brigade of the State of New Hampshire, on the other hand, has some home-brewed AFV available. Like Vermont, New Hampshire got left high and dry by First US Army’s efforts to find enough troops to keep the situations in the West under control in 1998. Consequently, the mix of small arms in the Granite Brigade is rather similar to that of the Green Jackets. However, the Granite Brigade was fortunate enough to have available a group with the right skills and an acting governor willing to lie, cheat, and steal with the best of the federal types. One won’t find any proper tanks, but there are some civilian armored cars concerted into gun trucks, some home-brewed MRL, and garage shop mortars mounted in the beds of pickup trucks.

The New Mexico State Guard, based in Santa Fe, actually has a few light AFV—a handful of which are actually working. The New Mexican AFV are of USAF and Mexican Army origin. During the 1998 campaign, USAF units withdrawing from the southern part of the state ended up leaving a number of inoperable vehicles in the hands of the New Mexican State Guard. Some USAF personnel ended up staying on with the NMSG rather than withdraw to Cannon AFB or other locations. In 1999, Third Mexican Army launched a supporting offensive in New Mexico aimed at knocking out Santa Fe and the surviving US forces there and destroying US forces at Cannon AFB. Third Mexican Army lacked the forces and the logistical base to achieve both objectives sequentially, much less simultaneously. However, the senior Mexican leadership was determined to offer decisive support to Mexican forces battling the US counteroffensives in Texas and California; therefore, the operation in New Mexico went forward. One of the outcomes was that Mexican forces withdrawing from Santa Fe and Cannon AFB left behind a number of inoperable AFV and some other equipment. As a result, the NMSG has a very limited quantity of heavy equipment not generally available to SDF.

The Arizona State Guard (AZSTAG) is in possession of a relative bounty of heavy gear by 2001 standards. Under the command of Fort Huachuca, 3rd AZSTAG Brigade uses a mix of H&K G3, FN MAG, and other small arms and infantry support weapons acquired from Mexican sources since 1998. The brigade has a small number of converted civilian armored cars available so that some armor remains in SAMAD when 111th Brigade begins extended full-scale operations in other parts of Arizona. 1st AZSTAG Brigade in Flagstaff inherited assault rifles, AGL, mortars, machine guns, and light AFV from USAF, US Army, and various police forces in Metro Phoenix that withdrew to Flagstaff when Luke AFB was overrun in 1998. Few of the AFV are operable, but the presence of a Cadillac Gage armored car with a 25mm autocannon has the desired effect on marauders in northern Arizona.

The Wyoming Rangers, which includes all personnel and equipment that would belong to an SDF, has almost nothing in the way of sophisticated military gear. Milgov took pretty much everything for itself, leaving the Rangers to patrol the lonely reaches of Wyoming on horseback with bolt action rifles.

My far-from-exhaustive list leaves plenty of room for differently-equipped units in the Midwest and the South. I thought it might be useful to talk about a couple of variations on SDF and how we might find a few with some heavier gear.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I wouldn't be so quick to remove the .30-06 calibre weapons as many nations were still fielding the .30-06 M1919 machinegun for vehicle armament into the 1990s (particularly former Commonwealth nations and also Israel).

Parts for them were still being supplied from the USA up to 1986 and later (I saw 'new' parts from the US in 1985/86 here in Australia, they probably weren't new manufacture but they were unused or refurbished .30-06 M1919 parts as we were and still are, using them as secondary MGs on our M113s).

I believe that all our .30-06 ammo was supplied from the USA as well (and may still be sourced from the US).
That plus the fact that .30-06 is still a reasonably popular civilian shooters round in the US.

[dragoon500ly]

Not to mention that tens of thousands of M-1 Carbines were sold at rock bottom prices as part of a program to encourage rifle shooting back in the 1950s-60s...

.30 caliber Carbine ammo is quite plentiful in the US. I checked with my local Wal-Mart and they had several boxes available, granted its a small Wal-Mart, but you get my drift.

As far as the State Guard getting their hands on LEA/Federal Agency weapons...wouldn't the agency be retaining such weapons for their own use?

I've only been able to confrim SG info through the states of Mississippi and Alabama, members from both confirmed that their source of weapons would be through the state's National Guard Bureaus. A strong case could be argued for the M-16EZs, but Mini-14s.....only as a personal weapon.

[HorseSoldier]

I wouldn't be so quick to remove the .30-06 calibre weapons as many nations were still fielding the .30-06 M1919 machinegun for vehicle armament into the 1990s (particularly former Commonwealth nations and also Israel).

Having worked logistics where we had non-standard calibers to support, I'm pretty comfortable writing 30-06 and 30 Carbine weapons out of a proposed US inventory, even a last ditch one. Admittedly the timeframe of 2005-2008 in real life isn't the same as Twilight War circa 1997, but I can tell you that in an organization where we had BARs and M1Cs and M1Ds available (and the horsepower to get ammo for all kinds of odd and fun toys), I simply could not source ammunition to train with them from official channels.

As noted previously, the guys in 7th SFG were able to get 30 Carbine but don't know if that was even USGI stocks by that point or commercial purchase specifically for their needs based on working with South American forces where the M1 Carbine was still on issue. (As a point of comparison, we could get military issue Yugoslavian 7.62x39 and Bulgarian 5.45x39 and 7.62x54, and Russian made blanks for all three, but our issue 9mm Makarov pistol ammo was the same Wolf brand commercial stuff anyone can buy at most gun stores. Likewise, our issue 45 ACP ammo was no longer made at government plants, it was all Winchester White Box or TZZ-stamped Israeli stuff.)

Parts for them were still being supplied from the USA up to 1986 and later (I saw 'new' parts from the US in 1985/86 here in Australia, they probably weren't new manufacture but they were unused or refurbished .30-06 M1919 parts as we were and still are, using them as secondary MGs on our M113s).

I'd venture to guess that was New Old Stock of WW2 vintage, as far as spares go. Maybe Korean War vintage, at the latest.

The US military divested itself of anything in 30-06 very vigorously in the 1970s, clearing Garands and related stuff out of the NG, likewise the 30 Carbines. Which makes sense -- the logic in a major war scenario of trying to support 7.62x51, 5.56mm, 30-06 and 30 Carbine is just crazy.

The only people who sustained WW2 vintage gear as a legacy system was the USN, which did some 7.62x51 conversions of Garands and M1919s, but the Garands ended up with CMP and I suspect their 1919 conversions got shipped to Israel or someone else still using that weapon in 7.62x51.

.30 caliber Carbine ammo is quite plentiful in the US. I checked with my local Wal-Mart and they had several boxes available, granted its a small Wal-Mart, but you get my drift.

Production to support the commercial market isn't really on par with pallet loads of ammo for military use, though. And a lot of 30 Carbine commercially available here in the US nowadays is foreign imports (awkwardly for T2K a lot is imported from Mexico . . .).

As far as the State Guard getting their hands on LEA/Federal Agency weapons...wouldn't the agency be retaining such weapons for their own use?

My thinking is that circa 2000, state defense forces and the militia include local law enforcement, members of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and so on and so forth on one hand, and that anything surplus to requirements in any of those agencies would have been handed over to a military struggling to field even nominally equipped forces.

I've only been able to confrim SG info through the states of Mississippi and Alabama, members from both confirmed that their source of weapons would be through the state's National Guard Bureaus. A strong case could be argued for the M-16EZs, but Mini-14s.....only as a personal weapon.

Until the plan succumbs to the "no plan survives contact with reality" issue. At that point -- a lot of local law enforcement and state prison systems in that era also liked the Mini-14. Not a great fighting rifle by any stretch of the imagination, but workable -- and back then had the plus of not looking too scary and military, LEA's not having yet warmed to the idea of officers with scary black military weapons in their hands.

I think they'd be dwarfed by M16EZ and real M14s in that role, but I also think they'd find themselves into the inventory, along with stuff like MP5s and Colt 9mm SMGs and other odds and ends federal and local LE fielded.

[weswood]

One thing I'm surprised to not see on anybody'd list is the plethora of AR15's that are available. Lots of parts are interchangable with the M16 family, same caliber, same magazines. The last gun show I went to (about 2 weeks ago) there were more ARs, both AR 15s & AK types than hunting type weapons.

[HorseSoldier]

The AR market in 96 or so wasn't what it is today, but it still was still notable. The main thing, from a game perspective, is that a semi-auto AR isn't much distinguishable from an M16/M4 with the game mechanics as written.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Production to support the commercial market isn't really on par with pallet loads of ammo for military use, though. And a lot of 30 Carbine commercially available here in the US nowadays is foreign imports (awkwardly for T2K a lot is imported from Mexico . . .).

OK, so the Mexican drug cartels buy most of their guns in the US, but the Mexicans export ammo to us...you'd think the Mexicans could get more money for the ammo out of the drug cartels...hmmm...

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The AR market in 96 or so wasn't what it is today, but it still was still notable. The main thing, from a game perspective, is that a semi-auto AR isn't much distinguishable from an M16/M4 with the game mechanics as written.

An option some states might consider is paying the volunteer if they provide their own weapon(s) as long as it is a specified calibre (probably .45, 9mmP, 5.56 or 7.62N). Puts a lot of the logistic burden on the volunteer not the system.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

OK, so the Mexican drug cartels buy most of their guns in the US, but the Mexicans export ammo to us...you'd think the Mexicans could get more money for the ammo out of the drug cartels...hmmm...

actually they get seem to get most of there guns from south america and the Mexican government (originally supplied by the US GOV to those countries governments), except for what the feds "allowed" so they could track, and a few straw purchases that got thru the system.

According to a Gov document Wiki-leaks released.


http://laht.com/article.asp?Category...ticleId=390473

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20039031.shtml
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...S-weapons.html
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/...drug-war-guns/
http://www.azpm.org/news/story/2011/...-no-us-access/
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/19/w...et-their-arms/

http://www.insidecostarica.com/daily...ca11042801.htm