Long Term Rifle Decisions

[Twilight2000v3MM]

I couldn't agree more. Even if we change the time to "Twilight: 2020" I dont see the M-16/M-4 family being replaced. There are multiple calibers on the market (6.8, 6.5, 6mm, .30 shadow (?), ect.) that have varying degrees of potential but I dont see 5.56 getting replaced. I do not see anything significant in the future to replace the platform. The FN SCAR and the Remington/Bushmaster weapons are not that much of an evolution to warrant replacing the M-16/M-4. Even the gas inpingment system of the M-16/M-4 still works. Sure its dirty but with proper care it works fine.

Thats just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

This. Much as I agree with the political reasons, it'll come down to logistics. No other rifle design would have the available tooling, blueprints/TDP, and base of recruitable/draftable civilian gunsmiths that the AR-15 platform has. Even with all available supplies being shipped to deployed troops aboard all available transport, you're still going to have significant quantities of 5.56x45mm in stockpiles that couldn't be moved for lack of fuel, personnel, or vehicles.

I also don't see a switch to a heavier or different caliber. A cartridge of 5.56x45mm simply takes a smaller physical quantity of resources to produce than a heavier round.

Now, moving past the standard service rifle, I can see a lot more variance in designated marksman and sniper weaponry. It may not entirely work from a strict prewar regulatory perspective, but I can see a general attitude (or even a change to regs) of "if you can qualify with it and keep it reliable and fed, you can use it" for troops in that role. From a gaming perspective, that opens the door for a lot of sniper or hunting rifles that aren't standard issue but players might like to use anyway.

- C.

[Raellus]

There are about a dozen companies cranking out various iterations of the AR-15 in the U.S. at the moment for the civilian market. I think that this well-established manufacturing base lends itself to continued production of the M-16 family as the standard service rifle for all U.S. gov./military forces after the TDM, and for the forseeable future.

The domestic companies that "manufacture" AKs and SKSs mostly use imported parts to basically kit build their rifles. These parts wouldn't be available in the Twilight timeline as the former PACT nations that currently sell those parts to American companies would not have done so if the Cold War had continued.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

I couldn't agree more. Even if we change the time to "Twilight: 2020" I dont see the M-16/M-4 family being replaced. There are multiple calibers on the market (6.8, 6.5, 6mm, .30 shadow (?), ect.) that have varying degrees of potential but I dont see 5.56 getting replaced. I do not see anything significant in the future to replace the platform. The FN SCAR and the Remington/Bushmaster weapons are not that much of an evolution to warrant replacing the M-16/M-4. Even the gas inpingment system of the M-16/M-4 still works. Sure its dirty but with proper care it works fine.

Thats just my 2 cents.

Indeed, between this and the aforementioned post regarding the massive numbers of secondary suppliers of black rifles, there is little to no reason I can see that would allow MilGov to do anything else but to push the AR, to do anything else would require too much effort. I could see some of the resources diverted to make a small percentage of the AR's in 7.62, but other than that, not really seeing anything else but.

As to TW2020 - the game I have pretty much been running on a very off and on basis is based in that year. Did a very basic overview to reason out some the reasons for things, and to provide excuses for some of the choices, but not much more than that.

[Arrissen]

American-made M16/ M4 series depending on local logistical requirements etc. Civgov are a bunch of pussies though I reckon! Yeah you heard right people, I mean what self-respecting military man would want to work for them anyway? Especially post-WWIII when the nukes have rained down and martial law is in effect? Sure some fellas would be stuck wherever and caught up in unit and/ or regional politics blah blah blah. IMO, they should rebel first chance they get and tear Civgov a new one so as not to be shot for being traitors. And if they were using the same ammo as Milgov then all the better. Just sayin.

[Targan]

Awesome rant!

[HorseSoldier]

New production M16 or M4 would be problematic without a global economy. If chemical industry isn't up to matching 60s era propellant efficiency, the caliber might be a problem too.

[Raellus]

What about the M16EZ of T2K infamy? Whenever one can justify the inclusion of canonical items, I consider it a win.

[95th Rifleman]

I don't see America getting rid of the M16 platform for a very long time. The newer weapons like the ACR/SCAR may see use in special forces units such as the Rangers, but I can't see America changing it's regular weapon unless technology changes (such as caseless ammo becoming reliable and economical).

To change over production for an army the size and scale of the US military is just too expensive. When you consider the almost modular nature of the M16 platform it seems more feasible that they would just upgrade what they have. A good example is the HK416, a modern, more reliable weapon. M4's can be converted to the HK416 by replacing the upper reciever.

I can see the US military using M16/M4 platforms for maybe another 30 or even 40 years.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Arrissen

...I mean what self-respecting military man would want to work for them anyway?

I'm with you there! Sure there'd be units raised by Civgov from the available manpower, but prexisting units?

As for the M16EZ, it's possible I suppose that worn out components previously melted down would instead be reworked once the facilities for recycling the materials were toast. Prior to late 98 though I'm just not convinced it would be happening, but as time dragged on...

[HorseSoldier]

M16EZ is stated to be mixes of used parts and pre-war production.

The M16 requires aircraft aluminum to manufacture. You could sub wood for the plastic furniture, but I don't know about a milled hunk of steel for the receiver. Even if it works it is heavy and inefficient. Something stamped a la the AK or AR-18 would be a better long term option.

[Arrissen]

Civgov/ civilian weapons? Just kidding. Well mostly, but I guess a few things to consider are that if surplus weapons such as the M14 and M1 have for the most part gone to National Guard and Militia units respectively, then there aren't that many options left. And besides going back to an old weapon system may not be sustainable over the long term anyway with regard to service life.

Can the Colt factory up 'Gun River' or whatever it's called be brought back into operation? Or some of the other gun factories along the river maybe? I can't remember what happened there.

IRL, rifles that are gas piston operated rather than direct impingment operated are on the rise in a big way, such as the HK416, FN SCAR and LWRC, with plenty of other companies doing the same. I too wonder if this would not be the way forward in the 21st Century, given time and regardless of the setbacks to the arms industry caused by the war. The logic still stands; gas piston driven rifles are alot more reliable.

I can't see American fighting men adopting an AK as their mainstay unless they absolutely had to, even though they are great weapons in many ways. As for mass-produced stamped weapons, yeah there are some good examples in history, that's true. That could be an option I suppose, but just not the best deal really is it? Kind of like being stuck with a red-headed step child.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Arrissen

Kind of like being stuck with a red-headed step child.

Ooooo, I had one of them...
And now I don't!