OT: Recruiting for a T2K game, in a different setting

[LAW0306]

Where do you get your attack plan from for the 5th Marines? I would have to say that it did not happen that way. Read "through the wheat field". It explains USMC plans, personel and tactics. I had to read it in TBS in 2008 and also did a Masters paper on this for school.

[LAW0306]

Sounds like a good game.. Have some questions..


1. how is german and Hispanic army supplied?
2. how does the german navy access the atlantic with combined english and US Navys?
3. The united states is activating up to 100 divisions during world war I from NG and reserve units, How are they on there home turf in the defense not cutting them down in waves.ala turks in their fight.

4.The united states is the premier industrial up and coming power. teamed up with the premier on the top power england. how are they out produced here.

if i have spelling or grammer errors please excuse in a hurry.

[Legbreaker]

In 1914, Germany was a well established indistrial and military nation with a population of approximately 90 million.
In 1914 the US was still an underdeveloped frontier country with it's population spread across a very wide area. It's total population numbered slightly more at aproximately 100 million.
Given that the victor in Europe is likely to absorb the populations industrial capacity and military of the defeated (including France, Britain, etc), it's very likely the Germans and their allies, should they be able to cross the atlantic, could tromp all over the under prepared and dispersed Americans.
Given the additional 5 years (to 1919) and even accounting for war losses, it's still likely that the German alliance (after a suitable period of rest and rebuilding) would have more than enough combined strength to at least threaten any other country in the world should they choose to so.

It's a very interesting "what if" scenario. Unlikely certainly, but definitely interesting.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

2. how does the german navy access the atlantic with combined english and US Navys?

This is the key question. To make things work, something has to keep the Royal Navy contained. With the surrender of the French, the British are forced to withdraw the BEF. Italy, with the loss of her major ally, signs a cease-fire with Austria-Hungry. Russia is in the midst of the Communist takeover and has no intrest in any more foreign envolvements.

France with her major industrial regions occupied by Germany and the remainder of the country under a puppet government (Vichy), is out of the war. Her army is de-mobilizing and her navy is under German control. Some elements of the French army/navy fled to England and the United States or to her African colonies (Free French), but her ability to maintain and expand her military is in ruins.

Britain does not sign a peace agreement, but a cease-fire is agreed to. England is busy rebuilding an Alliance against Germany and a Cold War situation exists. The occassional fleet element may have an "error whilst firing a salute" but its more along the lines of glowering at each other through the binoculars sort of thing. England is busy building up for the next round.

The Kriegsmarine, in 1919 deploys 19 dreadnoughts, 6 battlecruisers, 28 pre-dreadnoughts, and 6 armored cruisers for her battleline, but the real threat is her fleet of over 230 submarines. With Mexico's cooperation, U-Boats are based at Mexican ports, bringing US bases under threat of undersea attack. At this time, there is no sonar or ASDIC (a hydrophone might be thrown over and someone listens while the destroyer remains stationary, this is state of the art underwater detection).

The US Navy, in 1919, deploys 17 dreadnoughts, 23 pre-dreadnoughts (almost half are the Great White Fleet ships and are in poor material condition) and 25 armored cruisers as well as 90 submarines of the Holland and S-class).

Numbers wise, the US Navy being on the defense has the advantage, so how are the Germans getting supplies over to Mexico....Germany and the United States signed a cease-fire. Like the German mission to Turkey, the German mission to Mexico does consist of German military personnel. Officially they were discharged from the Imperial German Armed Forces, imigrated to Mexico and are Mexician citizens (right down to their new names). It allows Germany the polite fiction of not being involved, merely "selling war surplus to various other countries", all nice and legal. And also allows them to throw a monkey wrench into British efforts to create a new alliance, with the US involved in a war against Mexico, with a isolationist government in place busy "defending our sacred homeland from threats closer to home", the US is not looking for another European involvement.

3. The united states is activating up to 100 divisions during world war I from NG and reserve units, How are they on there home turf in the defense not cutting them down in waves.ala turks in their fight.

To be sure, the build-up continues, especially with Mexico invading the south-western states. But shortages of every kind exist. The US has only been producing war material in large numbers for the last two years. Indeed, so strong was the isolationist movement prior to the decelaration of war in real life, that the Secretaries of War and Navy were ordered to not make any mobilization plans or any contigency plans for fighting Germany.

4.The united states is the premier industrial up and coming power. teamed up with the premier on the top power england. how are they out produced here.

To be sure, the build is underway, but don't forget that as far as heavy weapons, aircraft, tanks, and artillery, most of this was provided by the French and British because American industry was not on a war time footing. An example is the M1903 Springfield rifle, the standard issue rifle for the US military, many people don't realize that the vast majority of the AEF was not armed with the Springfield because of the industrial situation, they went to war with a rifle that was ordered by the British and turned over to the Americans, the M1917 US Enfield rifle.

And for those historical film buffs, in "Sergeant York", Gary Cooper carries a Springfield and a Luger during the big battle scene, York actually carried a Enfield and a M1911.

Hope this helps.

[LAW0306]

1)In 1914 the US was still an underdeveloped frontier country

( I dont agree with that. we had some of the biggest citys in the world...New york,detroit,boston,san fran,just to name a few and over the last 4 years of war we have tooled up real nice to make goods for england and france. also we have taken no damage and no loss of troops.)

2)The USMC report straight out of their historical center

(What historical center and what book., I'm a 20 year career officer so you have to come with facts..times...dates....

3)Navy

When it comes to navy your numbers are correct for 1914 not 1919 when the us had been building ships for 4 years gearing up I have a link for a masters paper on this subject if you would like it. remember this was the age of coal. where and when would the german fleet coal at coming to the east coast????? the gulf of mexico and the carab are american lakes ringed with spanish war bases....hard for me to see them winning a sea fight ...there ships would be worn out from the trip and out of gas. us fleet would be fresh with interior supply lines....also we own vera cruz the largest mexican port so the germans are fucked. the us wont let any power into the west at this point let alone let germany build supplys for a year for an invasion....the brits well you have them giving up. I have fought with leg on this board for 3 years!!! brits, aussies and jocks,mics and new zealanders dont give up!!!!! not in there dna. even if wrong they fight to the death. so brit fleet is still there sorry. they did not give up in world war one or any other time in history why would they roll over now. The won jutland why would they quit.

4)Shortages of every kind??

What would they be short of? Rifles every man in usa has one maybe even a pistol. it would be bad for any army coming to us. we have interior supply lines they have to come over the sea witch we control! the desert is a bad place to be let alone fight. we have all logistic atvatages....


5)the M1917 US Enfield rifle

As it entered World War I, the UK had an urgent need for rifles and contracts for the new rifle were placed with arms companies in the United States. They decided to ask these companies to produce the new rifle design in the old .303 caliber for logistic commonality. The new rifle was termed the "Pattern 14." In the case of the P14 rifle, Winchester and Remington were selected. A third plant, a subsidiary of Remington, was tooled up at the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Eddystone, PA. Thus three variations of the P14 and M1917 exist, labeled "Winchester," "Remington" and "Eddystone." Number built

2,193,429 total this was in two years.(dont think we will have rifle shortage)

[dragoon500ly]

First, please remember that this is an Alternative Historical Setting...any realtionship to reality is purely accidential!

Originally Posted by LAW0306

1)In 1914 the US was still an underdeveloped frontier country

( I dont agree with that. we had some of the biggest citys in the world...New york,detroit,boston,san fran,just to name a few and over the last 4 years of war we have tooled up real nice to make goods for england and france. also we have taken no damage and no loss of troops.)

The quote on a US population of 100 million is right, please refer to the US Census for 1910, most Americans still lived in rual or small towns, there are no interstates, the primary means of interstate travel is the railroad. Cars are still considered fancy toys, although Ford and the Model T are making inroads, most Americans use horses or bicycles to get around town.

[QUOTE]2)The USMC report straight out of their historical center

(What historical center and what book., I'm a 20 year career officer so you have to come with facts..times...dates....[QUOTE]

The USMC Historical Division at their website, historical.usmc.mil there are a series of monographs that you can reference.

3)Navy
When it comes to navy your numbers are correct for 1914 not 1919 when the us had been building ships for 4 years gearing up I have a link for a masters paper on this subject if you would like it. remember this was the age of coal. where and when would the german fleet coal at coming to the east coast????? the gulf of mexico and the carab are american lakes ringed with spanish war bases....hard for me to see them winning a sea fight ...there ships would be worn out from the trip and out of gas. us fleet would be fresh with interior supply lines....also we own vera cruz the largest mexican port so the germans are fucked. the us wont let any power into the west at this point let alone let germany build supplys for a year for an invasion....the brits well you have them giving up. I have fought with leg on this board for 3 years!!! brits, aussies and jocks,mics and new zealanders dont give up!!!!! not in there dna. even if wrong they fight to the death. so brit fleet is still there sorry. they did not give up in world war one or any other time in history why would they roll over now. The won jutland why would they quit.

Let me see, my primary source for the ship counts was the 1920 Jane's Fighting Ships, this was the first addition put out after the end of the war and included all war time losses. I've always been impressed with the accuracy of Jane's and frankly see no need to change at this time.

You are correct about the need to coal, although many major warships are converting to oil/coal propulsion. Bases are surely needed, but the primary focus of my story is on the Army, to be perfectly frank, I used GM-fiat to decree that the Germans are able to make the transit.

One of the things I enjoy about the older Janes is a little section in front of the books that includes small scale harbor charts of the major fleet bases so, without further ado, the US naval stations of 1920:
New York & Brooklyn Naval Yards; the primary fleet support base and construction site for many of the Navy's warships.
Hampton Roads (Norfolk VA); Atlantic Fleet headquarters and another site for the construction of ships.
These are 2nd class naval yards, no construction but resupply, some repair facilities: Boston, League Island (Philadelphia, has two slips for construction), Washington D.C., Portsmouth NH, Charleston SC, Narraganset Bay RI (fleet anchorage), Newport RI, Cape May NJ, New London CT.
For the Gulf Coast & Caribbean: New Orleans LA, Pensacola FL, Key West FL (no docks, refueling only), Guantanamo Bay Cuba (fleet anchorage), Atlantic Entrance to Panama Canal (Colon, Panama).
A note on Gitmo, the harbor had no coast defenses and is a single passage, very easy to blockade.

A point about Vera Cruz, to be sure the US had major intrests there, but in a Mexican-American war, you will grant me the point that perhaps the Mexicans might take some kind of action to correct this state of affairs?

One of the background points for the game is that the British had to evacuate France following the French surrender. A cease fire is in effect and a Cold War-like situation currently exists. At no point in time did I say that the Brits & the Commonwealth rolled over and gave up. A cease-fire to buy time to build new Alliances, to build up forces, hate to say it, but historically the British have done that same sort of thing before. French forces fled to the UK to continue the fight, hardly sounds like King George said enough is enough? They continue the fight and I will not say anymore on this point as it will reveal future events in the game.

4)Shortages of every kind??

What would they be short of? Rifles every man in usa has one maybe even a pistol. it would be bad for any army coming to us. we have interior supply lines they have to come over the sea witch we control! the desert is a bad place to be let alone fight. we have all logistic atvatages....

Wow. Every book I've ever read on the US entry into World War One stated that there were severe shortages, Franch provided ALL of the artillery used by the AEF for example. In tanks, the US Ford 6-ton tank had 12 models built by November, 1918. The US made Tank Mark VIII the so-called "Liberty" model consisted of a single prototype! All tanks used by the AEF were either British heavy tanks or French light tanks. All aircraft used by the AEF, you guessed it, French-made. Prior to the US entry, the Army and Navy were specifically forbidden by the government to make any plans for mobilization or to make plans for sending troops to France. That is how unprepared the US was going into the war. To be sure, Russia and England were ordering equipment from the US, mostly consisiting of ammunition, small arms, food stocks, shoes, and various other support equipment.

There is a book titled US Infantry Weapons of the First World War by Bruce Canfield. This is a fairly complete recap of just how bad the problems were, JUST in relation to providing small arms to the troops:
Pistols: M1911; M1892 .38LC Revolvers; M1917 S&W and Colt Revolvers.
Rifles: M1903 Springfiled; M1917 US Enfield; M1898 Krag; Canadian Ross Mark II; M1891 Mosin-Nagant; French Lebel; French Berthier; British SMLE. And don't think the list ends there! Rifles were in such short supply that Winchester M1894 carbines were purchased to arm soldiers guarding the Pacific Northwest spruce forests (spruce was a critical item because it was the perferred wood for building aircraft)! The Krag and Ross rifles were used for training in the states so that first-line rifles could be sent to France.
Automatic Rifles: the French Berthier; French M1915 Chauchat; US M1918 Chauchat and the Browning Auto Rifle.
Machine Guns: Colt M1895; Colt M1914; US M1904 Maxim; French M1909 Benet-Mercie; Belgian Lewis; British Vickers Mark I; French M1914 Hotchkiss; French M1907 Saint Etienne; US M1917 Browning.
Grenade launcher: French Viven-Bessiere.
This is just a partial list and as can be seen, the AEF relied on a lot of foreign made weapons. Some of these were produced in the US to be sure, but they were originally intended to be used by those foreign governments to arm thier own militaries! This is how bad the US Army was for modern weapons of any kind.

5)the M1917 US Enfield rifle

As it entered World War I, the UK had an urgent need for rifles and contracts for the new rifle were placed with arms companies in the United States. They decided to ask these companies to produce the new rifle design in the old .303 caliber for logistic commonality. The new rifle was termed the "Pattern 14." In the case of the P14 rifle, Winchester and Remington were selected. A third plant, a subsidiary of Remington, was tooled up at the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Eddystone, PA. Thus three variations of the P14 and M1917 exist, labeled "Winchester," "Remington" and "Eddystone." Number built

2,193,429 total this was in two years.(dont think we will have rifle shortage)

The US Enfield was quoted as an example....you also need to include how many of these rifles were provided to England, records indicate that a total of 1,235,298 were made and shipped to our British cousins. The remaining US Enfields were rechambered for .30-06 and issued to the AEF...because of shortfalls in the production of the Springfield!

We can debate all of the fine details to our heart contents, but this is a Alternative History Setting, please allow me some creative license!

[dragoon500ly]

Is it just me are is this thread turning into a defense of a German-Mexican invasion of the US?

[dragoon500ly]

Perhaps this will make the so-called German invasion of the US clearer...

A lot of this I'm taking straight out of the German/Turkish fighting in the Middle East. In other words, the Germans are providing logistical support and advisors with critical mission specialists thrown in as well.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Germans are sending people to Mexico, but just as they did in Turkey, the specialists are "imigrating", they are "Mexican citizens", they are even changing their names so that from all outside apperances, they are "Mexican nationals".

Its a political fiction to disguise German involvement. All the i's are dotted and the t's crossed, its a legality.

So the US is in a position where it cannot attack GERMAN-flagged shipping, that pesky cease-fire that was signed in order to bring the AEF home. For a US Warship to attack a German-flagged merchant, why that would be an act of war!

The German submarines sold to Mexico are simply war surplus, sold to a soverign government for thier own military use. That the use was to invade the US, why that's such a shame! But Germany is not involved in this disagreement, especially when the Mexicans are trying to reclaim land that was stolen from them in the first place! And Germany stands ready to assist in the negotations to bring about a peaceful resolution to this problem. In the meantime, Mexico is a valued customer of German products.

Soooo, how does this impact players?

Well, its primarily Mexican troops that doing the fighting, the artillery, the machinegunners, a lot of the engineers are "German-born". Virtually all of the "Mexican" Air Force saw combat on the Western Front in 1916-18 and flying the same aircraft now.

The "Mexican" Navy has an awful lot of "German-born", especially in the new submarines.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

This is the key question. To make things work, something has to keep the Royal Navy contained. With the surrender of the French, the British are forced to withdraw the BEF.

Why not simply have the British surrender also? That places a rather large navy under the control of the German alliance and certainly provides the possibility of transportation across the Atlantic. Added to the French navy and there's an unstoppable naval force, easily able to control the seas and provide safe passage for transports.

In 1919 the British and French economies would have been churning out millions of tonnes of war material, hindered only by the availability of resources. With the war in Europe effectively over, that industrial production could be stockpiled in readiness for the assault on the Americas.

The US meanwhile hasn't had more than a few short years developing industry to the same capability as Europe - twenty years later however it was a different story, although IRL the US still had to spend time and effort getting up to speed, and full production capacity certainly wasn't reached immediately. Industrially, in the early 20th century, the US was a sleeping giant - plenty of potential, but...

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Why not simply have the British surrender also? That places a rather large navy under the control of the German alliance and certainly provides the possibility of transportation across the Atlantic. Added to the French navy and there's an unstoppable naval force, easily able to control the seas and provide safe passage for transports.

"Surrender" sounds too harsh, and giving up the Fleet is very, very unlikely. Perhaps the Germans won a promise of British neutrality in an American war in a secret protocol that allows the British a free hand somewhere else*, or some guarantee of something. That way, the RN is not blocking the German move to the Western Hemisphere (defeating the built-up USN in/around the Caribbean is still going to be a trick, though, as you're going to be far from coal resources).

* Maybe the Germans tricked the British by disguising their interest in Mexico, and allowed them to run free in combating the Bolsheviks in Russia instead. Excepting the Baltic coast, Poland and Ukraine, which are now German protectorates, with Hohenzollern crowned heads.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

Where do you get your attack plan from for the 5th Marines? I would have to say that it did not happen that way. Read "through the wheat field". It explains USMC plans, personel and tactics. I had to read it in TBS in 2008 and also did a Masters paper on this for school.

The USMC report straight out of their historical center, it was pretty damning about the wave attacks and recommended the use of "pre-war skirmish tactics" instead, it also further noted that skirmish lines were used for the rest of the Belleau fight with a notable reduction in losses.

Based on other reading, the 2nd Division was trained by French instructors once it had arrived in France, which could explain the wave attacks as this followed regular military thinking of the time. Add to the mix that the Marine Brigade was commanded by an Army Brigadier General more focused on fast results and I can see the initial use of wave attacks. The Marine Brigade history, did not have good things to say about their brigade commander at Belleau Wood.