Nightmare in Libya: 20,000 Surface-to-Air Missiles Missing

[LVI]

Originally Posted by Ronin

The SAM's honestly don't worry me as much as the chemical weapons. We here in the states need to be more prepared for their possible use. But in Europe, how many times have you heard of say the RIRA, or who ever trying to buy, or found in one of their arms caches. But mustard agent seems a far scarier concept. Besides being used offensively. Its also a area denial agent. Imagine trying decontaminate Washington DC. Till then its off limits. Lots of potential for mayhem.

So is the thought of the SAM's being used against passenger airliners going from europe to NA.

[Ronin]

I'm just saying I feel we already face that threat.

[Webstral]

The chemicals won't be fun, either. Just imagine the effect of a chemical attack on the US will have on the Bill of Rights. The only positive outcome of such a thing that leaps to mind is some lawyers arguing in support of the Fourth Amendment being tarred and feathered. Mind, I'm not anti-Fourth Amendment. Just anti-lawyer.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

A chemical attack on US soil - or shutting down air traffic courtesy of some well-timed SAM attacks - would be that last little push our country needs to fall completely into the abyss, I think.

I mean, financially - the market would panic. We'd take most of the world down with us, too, since right now even though they're on safe-but-shaky ground the European Union couldn't absorb the shock of a 2- or 3-thousand point one-day drop. With Greece inevitably defaulting in such a situation and the initial wallop, the world economic markets would be mortally wounded.

Of course an additional after-effect would be stuff that'd make the Patriot Act look cute by comparison. The inevitable further curtailing of civil liberties (imagine the TSA doing random stops on freeway on-ramps to search cars, questioning you and why you're taking a given drive) would at this point, as fed up as people are now lead to riots, which would cause further crackdowns.

These are dangerous days we're living. I wish it hadn't come to this.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Here's a comforting-ish thought though, framed as a question...what's the shelf life on these?

I remember early on during Operation Bomb the Fuck Out of Afghanistan Then March in and Somehow Not Wind Up Like Alexander, the British, the Indians and the Russians there were questions of our FiM-92s being used against us, but the common answer seemed to be that the batteries were probably long dead, and the cryogenic component for the warheads was long "flat", too.

If these are vintage Strelas, they might not be good for much more than shoulder-fired HE rockets. If that.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Here's a comforting-ish thought though, framed as a question...what's the shelf life on these?

I remember early on during Operation Bomb the Fuck Out of Afghanistan Then March in and Somehow Not Wind Up Like Alexander, the British, the Indians and the Russians there were questions of our FiM-92s being used against us, but the common answer seemed to be that the batteries were probably long dead, and the cryogenic component for the warheads was long "flat", too.

If these are vintage Strelas, they might not be good for much more than shoulder-fired HE rockets. If that.

Solid rocket fuel degrades. First Gen IR seeker. To long to hide under a trench coat at the Mall.

[pmulcahy11b]

You know, this cycle has happened several times in history before. Repressive government to relatively free country to repressive again to revolution to democracy to repressive government...

The saying doesn't actually say, " History repeats itself." That's a bad misquote. The actual quote is, "Those who do not remember the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them." And mankind has a really bad memory.

No superpower lasts forever. Our British and Spanish friends on this board know that well. Both countries were once superpowers -- at its height, Britain had a better claim to the title of "superpower" than the US has ever had. What does that tell you about the future of the US?

Remember, history is cyclic. The exact events are different, but the overall pattern remains the same.

[Grimace]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The chemicals won't be fun, either. Just imagine the effect of a chemical attack on the US will have on the Bill of Rights. The only positive outcome of such a thing that leaps to mind is some lawyers arguing in support of the Fourth Amendment being tarred and feathered. Mind, I'm not anti-Fourth Amendment. Just anti-lawyer.

Sadly, the 4th Amendment has already been trampled upon by the TSA in every airport and major transportation hub in America.

[Jason]

Small update on the mustard gas.

Originally Posted by (AP) AMSTERDAM, Netherlands

The international chemical weapons watchdog says stockpiles captured so far in Libya are in line with what Muammar Qaddafi's regime had previously declared, and no new weapons have been found.
The fate of the country's chemical weapons and precursors had been uncertain amid the chaos of the country's civil war.

Qaddafi used chemical weapons against Chad in the 1980s, but agreed to disband his weapons program in 2003.

The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons said Thursday remaining stockpiles appear under control after being seized by fighters for the country's new government last week.

The organization says around half of Qaddafi's supplies were destroyed before the revolution, and remaining stores of mustard gas can be destroyed within a month.

[natehale1971]

Thanks Jason.

Can anyone help me find a timeline about A.Q. Khan's nuclear black market?

I need the info for the work i'm doing on my timeline for "WWIV: A World in Flames" and my alternate Twilight 2000 setting.

So far I've found a timeline that has what happened in the seqence of events, but i've not been able to find out the dates when things happened. Right now I'm willing to just get the year the events happened.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Grimace

Sadly, the 4th Amendment has already been trampled upon by the TSA in every airport and major transportation hub in America.

I won't say anything in favor of TSA, as they are responsible for my wife missing her flight from Fort Bliss to San Francisco during my train-up. (Are TSA the only a******s in the country who don't know that white servicemen often marry women of color, and therefore it's not unusual for a black, Asian, or Hispanic woman to have a dependent's ID card with an Anglo, Irish, or German last name? Come on, now...) However, if one is flying one is entering into an optional contract with a carrier. One can avoid the search by not flying. Of course, in modern America not flying imposes substantial inconveniences. But I expect to be felt up when I travel at Christmas. (Not okay with some TSA agents who use security as a cover for pedophelia getting their mitts on my children.) So far, though, this hasn't translated into checkpoints on the major roads and random searches of homes. That's the development I'm worried about.

Of course, the soccer moms of America will change their minds when they find out how some cops behave when they are given free rein. The first time a soccer mom tries to keep the cops out of her underwear drawer and gets stuffed, her feelings about civil liberties and security will undergo a dramatic change. The first time the family dog gets shot or kicked to death by that certain percentage of the police force who joined not to serve but to have power, the family will begin to wonder about the price. When teenaged Sally comes home with a sob story about what happened at the checkpoint and mom and dad discover that there is effectively nothing they can do, now that civil liberties have been exchanged for security, the family will begin to think twice about the value of security. Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to give up rights than it is to get them back. That, sadly, is a lesson too many Americans will only learn the hard way. More's the pity for the rest of us.

[Targan]

So there is reason to suspect that there is widespread sexual assault and paedophilia occuring at airport security gates and in police operations? I'm not doubting you, mind, I'm just asking if the feeling is that this is relatively commonplace? Because if it is, where is the public outrage? My 9 to 5 job is being immersed in the media and I read a lot of news articles from the US. I've heard murmurings about this sort of thing but I didn't think it was felt to be widespread.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Targan

So there is reason to suspect that there is widespread sexual assault and paedophilia occuring at airport security gates and in police operations? I'm not doubting you, mind, I'm just asking if the feeling is that this is relatively commonplace? Because if it is, where is the public outrage? My 9 to 5 job is being immersed in the media and I read a lot of news articles from the US. I've heard murmurings about this sort of thing but I didn't think it was felt to be widespread.

It's a major worry for many a constitutionalist who see the errosion of civil liberities with how TSA does it's goping (the famous 'Don't touch my junk' cry) of little Children that if anyone else did it, they would be charged with Child Molestation or Sexual Assault. The last time i flew was in 2009, and the TSA wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now. But they gave me problems over the metal that holds my legs together. They had me taking off my leg and backbraces and wand scanning me over and over and just not listening that i was pinging because my left thigh is a metal rod that goes from hip socket to knee and that my right knee and upper tib and fib are made of metal. They where grabbing and touching me in ways that my doctors didn't even touch me. And this was WELL before the current regulations.

That is what scares and worries us.

[natehale1971]

The US Territorial Guard is nothing like the TSA... they are going to be alot more like the Federal Border Guard of West Germany.