WARPACT Arms Stockpiles

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

The East Germans may have been where StG-44s that wound up in Iraq orginated: I remember seeing some news footage of a raid on a cache near Najaf, and instead of the expected AKs, there were a number of StG-44s found. Hopefully, the unit that captured the weapons knew what they'd found, and sent one or two back home to the divisional museum, and maybe gave the rest to SOF.

Or in the hands of enterprising people like me till the first sergeant threw a fit over my crew running around with no helmet covers, 2 StG's, a MP40, and an Iranian MG3.


That said, I have to say, even old and abused, the StG was remarkably good in CQB.

[ArmySGT.]

The Soviets continued to manufacture ammunition for many weapon systems considered obsolete, even going so far as to manufacture improved ammunition.

[HorseSoldier]

The East Germans may have been where StG-44s that wound up in Iraq orginated: I remember seeing some news footage of a raid on a cache near Najaf, and instead of the expected AKs, there were a number of StG-44s found. Hopefully, the unit that captured the weapons knew what they'd found, and sent one or two back home to the divisional museum, and maybe gave the rest to SOF.

They were, indirectly. During the very early Cold War they handed over StG-44s to the Syrians and various other fraternal socialist brothers in the Middle East and Africa. The ones that turned up in Iraq were most likely the results of various people within the Syrian government paying that gesture forward.

There were enough StG-44s still in (maybe semi) official government service in different nations that the DDR was making 7.92x33 ammo for them up to the point where the walls came down. (Along with the Yugoslavians, who were still using them in some limited way, as well.)

That said, I have to say, even old and abused, the StG was remarkably good in CQB.

The one I got to play with was here in the US, but I have to agree, +/- the metal handguards getting hot enough to fry bacon after relatively limited use. Either a design flaw, or an intentional feature to discourage German troops equipped with them from throwing the thing on auto and burning through their whole basic load of ammo in the first two minutes of an engagement.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

They were, indirectly. During the very early Cold War they handed over StG-44s to the Syrians and various other fraternal socialist brothers in the Middle East and Africa. The ones that turned up in Iraq were most likely the results of various people within the Syrian government paying that gesture forward.

There were enough StG-44s still in (maybe semi) official government service in different nations that the DDR was making 7.92x33 ammo for them up to the point where the walls came down. (Along with the Yugoslavians, who were still using them in some limited way, as well.)



The one I got to play with was here in the US, but I have to agree, +/- the metal handguards getting hot enough to fry bacon after relatively limited use. Either a design flaw, or an intentional feature to discourage German troops equipped with them from throwing the thing on auto and burning through their whole basic load of ammo in the first two minutes of an engagement.

There's still debate on just how "original" Mikhail Kalashnikov's design is/was when you look at the Stg-44.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

There's still debate on just how "original" Mikhail Kalashnikov's design is/was when you look at the Stg-44.

I believe that a lot of the post war Soviet research was rehashed German stuff, but here, in regards to the AK, I think there is less duplication than most would think.

While the idea might have come from the limited use of AR's in Late 42 that got the ball rolling, the Soviets was always looking for something that would hit harder than a pistol round and not be as brutal in automatic fire as the Nagant would be. I can see MK and others glancing at the StG as they worked on the AK, but I think that in detail, its mostly original.

The AK is one of the few honest wins for original weapons development.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The AK and the StG44 share an overall similarity and there's no denial even from the Soviets themselves that they were interested and even influenced by German weapons they captured.
What's less well known is that there were a whole slew of designs put forward in competition with the Kalashnikov and nearly all of them followed the same general 'package' of the StG44. However the internal mechanisms/method of operation were as varied as you'd expect from a number of design groups submitting proposals.

We in the West haven't seen a lot of the other weapons submitted for trials for Western militaries and we've had even less exposure to similar trials from Eastern Europe but more information has become available in the last two decades.
The following article shows some of the contenders for the 1946-1947 Soviet rifle trials, many of them superficially resemble the StG44 so the German rifle definitely had some influence but to I think with more info available it's clearer now that the AK wasn't just a straight copy.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...of-the-week-9/

Apparently there's some contention about Kalashnikov actually designing the rifle that bears his name. Some researchers in Russia allege that Kalashnikov was a late replacement for the real designer who had offended Stalin and was "removed". Fact or speculation, who knows but it didn't pay to piss off Stalin!

As an item of speculation, many of the trials rifles were kept at their respective arms factories and can be seen today in their museums. It's possible some of these trials rifles were liberated during the Twilight War and made there way slowly westwards - it would sure be an interesting sight seeing someone carrying something like this, the TKB-408 of 1946 (and the media thinks bullpups are something new!)

For info on the above rifle, go here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html

[HorseSoldier]

The AK and StG bear a superficial external resemblance as well, but their internal operations aren't very similar, either, beyond that imposed by doing about the same thing with the same sort of round.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As an item of speculation, many of the trials rifles were kept at their respective arms factories and can be seen today in their museums. It's possible some of these trials rifles were liberated during the Twilight War and made there way slowly westwards - it would sure be an interesting sight seeing someone carrying something like this, the TKB-408 of 1946 (and the media thinks bullpups are something new!)

For info on the above rifle, go here http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/korobov-tkb-40-e.html

That rifle is ugly as hell...and yet there's something strangely appealing about it all the same. It just seems like the very kind of weapon you'd expect to find in a futuristic dysfunctional and/or post apocalyptic world...

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Or in the hands of enterprising people like me till the first sergeant threw a fit over my crew running around with no helmet covers, 2 StG's, a MP40, and an Iranian MG3.


That said, I have to say, even old and abused, the StG was remarkably good in CQB.

It's too bad they wouldn't let you guys send more of that stuff home, from what I've read some of the stuff they've turned up on cache raids is a gun/museum collector's wet dream!