Recommissioned US Navy ships

[Panther Al]

At the risk of jumping into a storm here, but there is a third option.

IIRC, Not all the US Troops went home: They chose some units to remain in Europe to maintain a US Presence in the theatre. It would make sense, since Europe is the hottest theatre around, to use the Tarawa as a Flagship for a small European based Navel Presence to support those US troops there. After all, you really are not going to *need* a full fledged light carrier back in the US, whereas in Europe it allows you to have a solid RDF operating the Baltic where the quality of opposition requires the use of such equipment.

[Olefin]

Great idea Panther - heck there is even a way you can explain the ship not being there for Omega and be in Europe and not sunk - which would be her captain declares for CivGov and takes the ship to support the ops in Yugoslavia - where such a ship would be of huge help to the US divisions that are there - and even though improbable it wouldnt in any way conflict with canon - because for one there is very little about Yugoslavia besides the forces there that is canon - and if all it has in one or two operational aircraft then the statement in RDF about last US active carrier group (at that time) still holds up

[Legbreaker]

The US units which stayed in Europe either didn't have a choice (the cut off XI Corps) or essentially muntinied and refused to obey orders. Some smaller units did stay with official sanction, but the withdrawal order was essentially all encompassing.

The Tarawa declaring for Civgov? Very unlikely since floating it's such a huge resource, deep in a Milgov area in mid 2000. You can bet Milgov would do EVERYTHING in it's power to prevent such an occurrence. As far as I'm aware, the ship supports the US Marines - no US marines declared for Civgov. It's very likely that even after delivering troops a decent complement of Marines stayed aboard.

As it's conventionally fueled, it's not about to join the Yugoslavian units either - it would be left all alone in the middle of a hostile situation. There's almost no possibility of fuel being available from any source.

Additionally, even if it was to mutiny and somehow get to Yugoslavia, it still has to face the "might" of the remaining Italian and Greek navies. Obviously Civgov had some naval assets when it deployed units there, but how effective are they by late 2000? Could they really have the necessary fuel, ammunition and surviving crew to sortie out to escort the Tarawa all the way, or even part of the way?

No, to me the by far most logical fate of the Tarawa is either sunk, beached or critically damaged somewhere in the Baltic as a result of Pact resistance to the Spring Offensive.

Others are entitled to have a different view, however careful examination of the published materials appears to support this assessment.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The US units which stayed in Europe either didn't have a choice (the cut off XI Corps) or essentially muntinied and refused to obey orders. Some smaller units did stay with official sanction, but the withdrawal order was essentially all encompassing.

The Tarawa declaring for Civgov? Very unlikely since floating it's such a huge resource, deep in a Milgov area in mid 2000. You can bet Milgov would do EVERYTHING in it's power to prevent such an occurrence. As far as I'm aware, the ship supports the US Marines - no US marines declared for Civgov. It's very likely that even after delivering troops a decent complement of Marines stayed aboard.

As it's conventionally fueled, it's not about to join the Yugoslavian units either - it would be left all alone in the middle of a hostile situation. There's almost no possibility of fuel being available from any source.

Additionally, even if it was to mutiny and somehow get to Yugoslavia, it still has to face the "might" of the remaining Italian and Greek navies. Obviously Civgov had some naval assets when it deployed units there, but how effective are they by late 2000? Could they really have the necessary fuel, ammunition and surviving crew to sortie out to escort the Tarawa all the way, or even part of the way?

No, to me the by far most logical fate of the Tarawa is either sunk, beached or critically damaged somewhere in the Baltic as a result of Pact resistance to the Spring Offensive.

Others are entitled to have a different view, however careful examination of the published materials appears to support this assessment.

Um, On the top bit I disagree with you on this.


I broke out going home, and started up with the pencil and paper to run the numbers.

The units that basically said to hell with it, and went off on their own amounts to only 2700 troops and 14 AFV's, in three units. The largest being made up of 2000/6 setting up a little pocket duchy in the Austrian Alps.

The units that remained in the chain of command, that elected to stay behind - and considering where over half of them are, (We are not talking about 11th Corp here, this is 4th Army, 3 Corp, and 13th Corp) Germany Proper, with the largest single unit being 1Cav with 2400/43 located right in the middle of organised (Well, TW2k sense of organised) Germany. Admittedly, a small portion of 1600 men and 14 AFV's fall under German Command being that they are co-located and assigned as a NATO unit to a German Higher Headquarters. Those two units could be argued either way as if they are running from the Chain of Command, or abiding by it since technically, they don't fall under the Omega Authority. The total staying behind in the chain amounts to 13,000 Men, and 121 AFV's. This amounts to roughly a third of US forces in Europe - and that many wouldn't stay behind without Official Sanction. Now those in my first Para - yeah. They fall into what you said about mutinous units and all.

Of course, that leaves 37,300 men heading out, and 231 AFV's being handed over to the German Army (Which I can just see the German High Command jumping for joy over - thats enough AFV's to bring a Panzer Division up from nothing to full strength and then some!). Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

You're right, that's a good fit.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

I broke out going home, and started up with the pencil and paper to run the numbers.

The units that basically said to hell with it, and went off on their own amounts to only 2700 troops and 14 AFV's, in three units. The largest being made up of 2000/6 setting up a little pocket duchy in the Austrian Alps.

The units that remained in the chain of command, that elected to stay behind - and considering where over half of them are, (We are not talking about 11th Corp here, this is 4th Army, 3 Corp, and 13th Corp) Germany Proper, with the largest single unit being 1Cav with 2400/43 located right in the middle of organised (Well, TW2k sense of organised) Germany. Admittedly, a small portion of 1600 men and 14 AFV's fall under German Command being that they are co-located and assigned as a NATO unit to a German Higher Headquarters. Those two units could be argued either way as if they are running from the Chain of Command, or abiding by it since technically, they don't fall under the Omega Authority. The total staying behind in the chain amounts to 13,000 Men, and 121 AFV's. This amounts to roughly a third of US forces in Europe - and that many wouldn't stay behind without Official Sanction. Now those in my first Para - yeah. They fall into what you said about mutinous units and all.

Of course, that leaves 37,300 men heading out, and 231 AFV's being handed over to the German Army (Which I can just see the German High Command jumping for joy over - thats enough AFV's to bring a Panzer Division up from nothing to full strength and then some!). Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

Originally Posted by Targan

You're right, that's a good fit.

So, if we go with this - which makes sense on sooo many levels, here is the units scheduled to go to the RDF:

Bear in mind these units are the ones already in Bremerhaven, so they have had time to get everything back in order.

3rd Armoured, 5000 men, 54 AFV's.
4th Infantry, 1000 men, 16 AFV's.
28th Infantry, 1000 men, 4 AFV's.
11th ACR - When they are not blowing up their own motor pool, 500 men, 4 AFV's.

It would make sense to use the manpower tucked into the 11th ACR to cover losses in the other three units for the aforementioned loss of those unable to stay in the service. I would also suggest, though this is un-cannon, that the US MilGov would make a play to keep at least the heavy vehicles already present in these units (If only the 3d Armoured) to allow them to function in the Middle East. 3AD in particular was one of the very first units to arrive in Europe before it got really started, and has taken part according to the books, in *every* offensive of the war, and still has a very large strength of armoured vehicles and manpower. That still leaves over 150ish (Or 175ish) AFV's to be handed over to the Germans.

*edit*

Also, having the 3AD retain its Tanks and other heavy equipment does make sense in a canon way if you think about it. From what I read, the RDF is spread out over a wide area, with a very european reduction in combat power. In the RDF source book, it points out that the Soviets was getting ready to make a very large total offensive in 2001. If all the RDF got was leg infantry, I don't think that even with Airpower, the RDF could stop them. Reading the T2300 storyline, it sounds as if they did. Having the 3AD arrive in theatre, with its 54 Tanks, would give the RDF enough strength to beat back the offensive in such a way as to allow the US to get what they did out of the region as per the T2300 story line.

[Olefin]

Or alternatively Tarawa is at Omega - but doesnt show up until after the orders are issued for the evacuation - perhaps she is out of communication or has her long range radios knocked out - so she is assumed sunk

and then she steams into Bremerhaven with part of the 8th ID and the Marines on board or maybe just empty and unable to rescue them at all

We dont have any details on what exact ships were there by Nov 14 - so if she shows up between the orders issued and that date she is part of Omega and the module wouldnt mention it in any of the information the players had

Oh and it could then explain who takes the 6000 men to the RDF - its Tarawa and a few other ships

and the RDF module never mentioned what ships brought the reinforcements - just that they showed up

and Kings Ransom didnt have any naval elements in it - so Tarawa showing up wouldnt have been part of the module

so does Tarawa being there change canon - no not at all since no ships besides John Hancock were canon mentioned

I remember Leg arguing that only 9 ships existed in the USN because thats all that were mentioned at the time - then Challenger 42 comes out and now there are three DD's specifically mentioned as being in service and part of the Omega Task Force

so did canon suddenly explode and fly off into improbability - no it just expanded to add three DD's

same with Tarawa - adding her to the USN active list in now way suddenly makes the US rule the seas - she is just one more ship that is low on fuel if she is in the states or who arrives with the reinforcements at the RDF and who, like the French ships who were part of the FAR, not mentioned in the sourcebook

[Olefin]

and my assesment is just as well supported by the published materials Leg - so we can agree to disagree - and unless someone picks up Twilight 2000 again officially and says what is and what isnt canon - you are free to either add the Tarawa to a fan module or game or not

frankly its one way to add a naval element to a Polish scenario - have the Osprey fly off the sinking Tarawa if you want her sunk and land in Poland near, oh say, north of Krakow to be found by a bunch of escaping 5th ID soldiers who strip her for usuable equipment and add her crew as NPC's (or new characters if you need to replace some casualties)

If you want her part of the campaign - an Osprey is a great way to insert characters into, oh say, Texas or Last Submarine - or to do a pick up by helo from NYC with the King of NY in pursuit

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I remember Leg arguing that only 9 ships existed in the USN because thats all that were mentioned at the time - then Challenger 42 comes out and now there are three DD's specifically mentioned as being in service and part of the Omega Task Force

That is a misquote. I stated that was all that were listed in canon and did not close the door to the possibility of others.

In fact you will find at several occasions I have stated the possibility of additional ships, of ALL nations (specifically Soviet), but none in 100% working order.

The one factor which cannot be ignored though is balance. To increase the effective strength of one side will radically upset the delicate balance of T2K and turn it from a playable post apocalyptic game to an exercise in comparing military penises. Increase both sides and you have to justify supporting those units and explain why such "strong" units are no longer able to prosecute the war.

[Targan]

I don't really have any issue with the idea of the Tarawa being seaworthy and in active USN service, if it's post-Omega. Heck, there have been a couple of scenarios suggested for the Tarawa's ongoing service that I would support, given a bit more fleshing out. There are other examples where information on USN vessels is open to interpretation. An example - there are USN destroyers mentioned in A Rock in Troubled Waters that may well have been involved in escorting the Omega fleet either as part of the fleet all the way from Bremerhaven or for only part of the way. Those vessels weren't specifically stated as having been in the Omega fleet, but then again they weren't stated not to have been either.

Tarawa kind of falls into that category, too, but as I've said in previous posts it just seems unlikely to me that with a Spruance-class destroyer being specifically mentioned in Going Home, the Tarawa would be part of the fleet and not mentioned (and even more unlikely that it wasn't the flagship).

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

Targan, is a 3rd way feasible?

What about an all-encompassing Opord:Omega that has troops being pulled from Korea, Japan, Australia and points east...erm, west...and the Tarawa is conveniently the flagship of that evac mission, and it takes place at the same time, having avoided the worst of the typhoon season?

It satisfies all parties: Tarawa still afloat, but not a factor in the European/Baltic theatre.

[Olefin]

Actually having 5th Corps evacuated out with its AFV's is part of the alternate timeline that I have started to flesh out. When we did the RDF my GM looked at the 5th Corps and then looked at 6000 men and it made perfect sense - that they were sent out in their own evac, with their AFV's as part of an operation that deviated from Omega.

I.e. Omega took everyone but 5th Corps home without their tanks and 5th Corp went with their tanks and men to the RDF, giving them the men and AFV's to stop the last Soviet offensive and then push them out of Iran.

And how did they keep their tanks - because they got evac'd with ships from the states while the rest had to go home on the German ships and the fare for those ships was their heavy weapons and vehicles.

It also explains why the East Coast is so short of fuel in Troubled Waters - because they had to give most of their fuel to the convoy taking the 5th Corps to the RDF.

And by the way all of those suppositions fit totally into canon - it supports the written material of Omega and the RDF, explains where the 6000 men came from, and how the US and its allies drove the Soviets out of Iran for 2300 AD.

As for Tarawa - having her dispatched for an Asian Omega also makes a lot of sense - where are a bunch of Marine units that would need to be evacuated - answer- Korea. And she would be perfect to evacuate them.

And Leg, Tarawa being added to the USN in no way harms canon. She doesnt overpower any scenario or the outcome of any scenario.

Plus she adds a great way to get players back to Europe for the return to Europe scenario as well - i.e. she is late to the party for Omega or does the RDF evac - goes back to the States with the men who in the RDF choose to go home (it is mentioned that some do choose to go home and the best way to get them home is the ship or ships that brought the reinforcements), then is dispatched to Europe (possibly after being fueled with some of the oil from Gulf Forty) for a second Omega to get the remains of the 8th ID and the Marines out (and drops the player party off for the Return modules as well)