U.S. Marines on the Baltic: Task Force Inchon

[oldschoolgm]

Something I came across lately may be worth thinking about. According the to UK sourcebook (v. 1), it's states that the British 1st Armored Division did move through the Baltic Coast area early in the war. This could be part of the reason Elblarg lays in ruins.

Secondly as I've been reading over some of the city descriptions from the modules, there seems to be a trend for the cities and towns to be more pro-western than pro-soviet. I would imagine that the tendency of the Polish attitudes to lean more pro-western even in the Baltic regions as well.

My assumption, due to lack of anything canonical regarding this, is that the Marines will absorb some local Polish militia and army regulars, they will also pick up a fair amount of allied regulars from other units that are apart of the offensive and not terribly distant from the Marine front lines. And it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't absorb some Soviet defectors as well. (And how appropriate would it be that they may be GRU or KGB moles?) Either way I think we would not be too far from wrong in saying that in general terms the Poles lean more pro-west in the summer of 2k.

[Legbreaker]

On the other hand soldiers of any nationality are always worth making friends with when they're camped next door to you....

[GDWFan]

Is it just me or does leg make every thread a labor to read? I mean instead of moving the idea forward and sharing info, posters are forced to argue every point against leg one at time. the constant angry canon spouting devils advocate act gets so old, kills interesting threads and chases away good members. Am I the only one?

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

Something I came across lately may be worth thinking about. According the to UK sourcebook (v. 1), it's states that the British 1st Armored Division did move through the Baltic Coast area early in the war. This could be part of the reason Elblarg lays in ruins.

Well, given that the historical British Cold War forces were based in northern Germany, that makes sense. I'd be more than willing to believe that the British Army of the Rhine had NATO's left flank in 1997 and onward.

[oldschoolgm]

I went back and reread the info from the UK sourcebook and found this on page 8, under the year 1997:

<<On 2 April 2, NATO launched Operation Advent Crown. The
German Second Army drove up the Baltic coast, and the German
Third Army advanced along the Oder River. The German First
Army, to which 1st Corps was attached, was ordered to drive
through central Poland. Led by 1st Armoured Division, 1st Corps
broke through the Polish forces on the Oder on the 24th. On 4 May,
the division entered Poznan, and the corps split into two columns,
with 1st and 2nd divisions continuing east, while the rest of the
corps headed southeast. On 11 May, the 4th Armoured Division
took Kalisz, encountering only scattered opposition; on 17 May, it
reached Lodz, which fell on the 25th. By the end of May, the two
columns linked up on the outskirts of Warsaw—the corps was
ordered to take the city.>>

The British BOAR I Corps is lead by the 1st Armored Division according the the books OOB, but there is also a glaring contradiction in the following chapters. Read the following:

<<In mid-July, the Italians began to enter southern Germany, and
NATO forces moved to oppose them—primarily the British 1st and
2nd armoured divisions.>>

<<As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive.
Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces
to the north and south of BAOR's theater were conducting mobile
defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards
Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce
withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but
it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end
of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to
stop the Soviets The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear
weapons.>>

The official canon really screws up here because in roughly a months time they are trying to say that the 1st Armored goes from North of Warsaw to Southern Germany and then back to North of Warsaw. I see the 1st Armored staying North of Warsaw and some other unit joining the 2nd Armored Division going to handle the Italians.

Of Note; The German 1st Army of which I Corps of the BOAR is attached seems to have stayed in the region between the Baltic Coast and Warsaw through much of 1997. Elblarg was probably destroyed in the nuclear exchange when the Soviets pushed the Allies out of Poland late in the year.

Food for thought and discussion!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

The British BOAR I Corps is lead by the 1st Armored Division according the the books OOB, but there is also a glaring contradiction in the following chapters. Read the following:

Food for thought and discussion!

If you read on, the contradiction actually gets worse. From page 47 of the SGUK:

EAST (2ND ARMOURED) DIVISION
The division was formed in the summer of 1996 and arrived in
Germany on 15 October 1996. It crossed the interGerman frontier
on 10 December 1996 and was in combat by 12 December 1996.
The 2nd fought hard in eastern Germany, where it repulsed an
attack by the Soviet 20th Guards Army.
In July 1997, the division was sent south, along with the rest of
I Corps, to fight the Italians.

That quote suggests that the entire I Corps was transferred to southern Germany in July 1997.

I'd say the most likely compromise to try and follow canon would be to shift the 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions to southern Germany, whilst leaving the 3rd and 4th Armoured Divisions in Poland.

[Webstral]

Do we need to convene a conclave of cardinals to explain how the apparent problem with the source material is really a problem with the inability of the lay person to understand the complexities involved?

[oldschoolgm]

Rofl... that would be funny Webstral

The important part for me in this material is that Elblag was probably destroyed in 1997 during the fighting in Northern Poland either when the German Army first swept through the area, or most likely (at least this is what I believe) when the German Army was pushed back into Germany. This would at least give some background for those of us who are examining and beginning to play games in that region with the characters coming from the 2nd Marine Division.

The big unanswered question from here is, was the city laid to waste by conventional fighting or by a tactical nuclear strike. Here again, I lean to the second option.

So it is my opinion only, that the Soviets nuked the city as the German 1st Army and it's allied components were being pushed out of Poland in during the second half of 1997. Although a very colorful story could be made for the Germans nuking the town as the Soviets entered it.

From reading on the history of Elblag, I tend to think the Germans would want it to stay intact since it is a city that had once been a German city and some deep history tied to Germany's past.

Now this brings me to a question. Has anyone outlined the German Army and their movements through the war? I'm going back and looking at my stuff but I've only just begun this process and if someone has already done a lot of ground work I'd love to read over it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

The big unanswered question from here is, was the city laid to waste by conventional fighting or by a tactical nuclear strike. Here again, I lean to the second option.

My guess is both. It didn't take nukes in WWII to level cities, a week or so of artillery, infantry and armoured attacks was often enough to do some serious damage. A good example of what can be done in just a few days (and without air attacks!) can be seen in the movie "A Bridge Too Far" where they show Arnhem. Another example is the town at the end of "Saving Private Ryan".

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

Now this brings me to a question. Has anyone outlined the German Army and their movements through the war? I'm going back and looking at my stuff but I've only just begun this process and if someone has already done a lot of ground work I'd love to read over it.

I started but the material is very vague. It's hard enough getting a handle on US units, and being a game focused on US soldiers, there's a lot more info for them! Most of the information details just the date (but not necessarily location) they entered combat and where they are four years later. What they did in the meantime is mainly ignored. AND a number of Divisions changed Corps and even Armies during the war with confuses the situation even more.

[Legbreaker]

On 2 April 2, NATO launched Operation Advent Crown. The German Second Army drove up the Baltic coast, and the German Third Army advanced along the Oder River. The German First Army, to which 1st Corps was attached, was ordered to drive through central Poland. Led by 1st Armoured Division, 1st Corps broke through the Polish forces on the Oder on the 24th. On 4 May, the division entered Poznan, and the corps split into two columns, with 1st and 2nd divisions continuing east, while the rest of the corps headed southeast. On 11 May, the 4th Armoured Division took Kalisz, encountering only scattered opposition; on 17 May, it reached Lodz, which fell on the 25th. By the end of May, the two columns linked up on the outskirts of Warsaw—the corps was ordered to take the city.

In mid-July, the Italians began to enter southern Germany, and NATO forces moved to oppose them—primarily the British 1st and 2nd armoured divisions.

As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive. Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces to the north and south of BAOR's theatre were conducting mobile defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons.

EAST (2ND ARMOURED) DIVISION
The division was formed in the summer of 1996 and arrived in Germany on 15 October 1996. It crossed the inter-German frontier on 10 December 1996 and was in combat by 12 December 1996. The 2nd fought hard in eastern Germany, where it repulsed an attack by the Soviet 20th Guards Army. In July 1997, the division was sent south, along with the rest of I Corps, to fight the Italians.

I'm not seeing any big problem here.
The BOAR was ordered from Poland to southern Germany to meet the Italian advance.
The Italian advance faltered due to their industry not having yet spun up to war time production and the military exhausting their pre-war supplies. This occurred around the same time as the Soviets reached Warsaw so the British were withdrawn from the Italian front where the situation appeared to have stabilised and rushed back into Poland where the situation was somewhat dire.

Yes, there's a bit of running about for the British, but don't forget this was in the days before nukes and when petroleum fuels were still in relatively plentiful supply. Running on petroleum fuels, even the slowest tank can cross from one side of Poland to the other in about a day or so. Therefore, it's not particularly difficult to see the BOAR being redeployed that quickly especially if they were given priority over the rear area roads and rails - it's not like they had to move off road through enemy held terrain.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

If you read on, the contradiction actually gets worse. From page 47 of the SGUK:



That quote suggests that the entire I Corps was transferred to southern Germany in July 1997.

I'd say the most likely compromise to try and follow canon would be to shift the 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions to southern Germany, whilst leaving the 3rd and 4th Armoured Divisions in Poland.

This is the same book that says on page 8...

"As August arrived, BAOR was forced to switch to the defensive. Soviet forces were attempting to relieve Warsaw, and NATO forces to the north and south of BAOR's theater were conducting mobile defensive withdrawals. On 15 September, the Soviet 7th Guards Tank Army broke through to Warsaw. First Corps began a fierce withdrawal action in a desperate attempt to stop the Soviets, but it was too heavily outnumbered and was pushed back. By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets. The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons."

Emphasis added by me.

Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom (1990) by Peter Phillipps.

Given that NATO first use goes against every other source of canon and that the date for nuclear release is incorrect as well; we can only assume that Mr. Phillipps was in fact a French agent who deliberately attempted to discredit NATO.

Arguing canon is largely a fools errand.

Benjamin

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

By the end of September, NATO began to use tactical nuclear weapons to stop the Soviets. The Soviets replied by using their own nuclear weapons."

The Soviets first used nukes on the 9th of July 1997.

On July 9th, with advanced elements of the 1st German Army on Soviet soil, the Soviets begin using tactical nuclear weapons. In the West, they are used sparingly at first, and for the first week are used only against troop concentrations no further than 50 kilometers from the Soviet border. In the Far East, however, they are used on a massive scale. Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centers still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared.

On the western front, the forward elements of both armies on the Soviet-Polish frontier are hit hard by tactical nuclear strikes, as NATO matched the Warsaw Pact warhead for warhead.

A possible explanation for the differing date of Nato first use, is how they were used.
In July, August and most of September, they were used by Nato on a one for one basis against targets of great value but behind the front lines (Divisional or Army HQs, supply depots, etc). This policy changed after Warsaw was relieved to use against the Soviet front lines in order to break up not just their logistical support, but the combat units (battalions and brigades/regiments) themselves. This change is a significant escalation in the use of nukes and could well be a major contributor towards the use of strategic weapons just two months later.

[Raellus]

I don't think Elblag is on any nuclear strike lists (at least none that are canonically confirmed) so I choose to imagine that it was not nuked. I think the Germans would be very reluctant to agree to any nuclear strikes on areas of Poland that they've made historical claims to in the past (to the extant they have any sort of veto power), and Elblag has been a part of the various iterations of German Prussia from medieval times up to the Third Reich. IF the city was nuked- and, once again, I tend to think that it was not- the Soviets are likely to blame.

That said, the map in the BYB does show Elblag as being rubbled. I therefore tend to think that damage to the city was caused by conventional fighting (artillery, naval gunfire, airstrikes, etc.). For an idea of what modern Russian conventional firepower can do to relatively small city, do a Google image search for Grozny. Ouch.

For my campaign to work, I need an Elblag that doesn't look like Hiroshima. I've chosen to stray a bit from the canon and have the city be only moderately damaged by years of conventional fighting, but not rubbled per se (some repairs have been conducted by the city's inhabitants since the last round of heavy fighting) . If asked to rate the extent of the damage to the city on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being pristine and 10 being ashes and dust, I choose to envision Elblag somewhere around a 5.