And where did the United Nations go?

[Legbreaker]

Yes, the UN did indeed stay put, but there were no nukes used, and neither was there much threat of them.
In T2K, 1996-97 the situation is VERY different. The UN is sitting right in the heart of a big bullseye, and they know it. As an organisation struggling with relevancy, I just don't buy them moving to any country that is in conflict with any of it's neighbours.
It's far more likely in my opinion they'd go somewhere basically neutral such as New Zealand, Japan, Madagascar, Spain, Portugal, or even somewhere in Africa.

As for moving every time there's a border dispute, when was the last time the US was involved in one of them?

[Olefin]

we are still engaged in one border dispute today in Korea - I was meaning conflicts or threats of conflict

and the UN stayed in place on a major bullseye for 40 years during the Cold War - I forgot was it 50 or 60 nukes the Russians had targeted on NYC in the 1980's?

actually I like the one place I proposed in the Pacific - i.e. Tahiti

Its on neutral ground (French territory), good food supply, decent military presence (the French one), access to the sea for sure (since most communication will now be by ship of some sort), and you cant beat the climate

by the way I dont agree with a lot of what is in V2 for one very good reason - the butt kicking it gives the French which sounds much worse than what they took in V1

there is no way that they take that kind of hit from the Russians and not declare war on them - not without some kind of massive coup attempt by a lot of their military who would have thought their govt was insane to take that kind of hit and not go to war. At the very least some of their commanders and units would have probably said the heck with this and joined NATO to get payback, sort of like those who joined the Free French did when the rest of the French military surrendered in 1940.

I dont see a France as described in V2 being able to field in 1998 the forces they sent to the RDF - not when the entire southern part of their country is under mob domination and parts of it are in open revolt against the central government.

The FAR wouldnt be in Africa and the Middle East, it would be in Lyon and Corsica and Strassbourg.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

we are still engaged in one border dispute today in Korea - I was meaning conflicts or threats of conflict

That is a United Nations conflict, not a United States one.
The US are operating under UN authority.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and the UN stayed in place on a major bullseye for 40 years during the Cold War

Which didn't degenerate into a shooting war. In those few instances where tensions rose (the Cuban missile crisis for example), it's fairly certain UN reps would have been discretely finding somewhere else to go if they possibly could. It's notable that T2K gives the UN as an organisation, about 8 months before tactical nukes are used, and another few months after that before strategic strikes start. Plenty of time to see the once "cold" war go hot and do something about it.
IRL my guess is the UN probably has contingency plans in case it's New York HQ is nuked, which may be as simple as reconvening in one of multiple prearranged locations (exactly where depending on the global situation). I'm also guessing plans exist for a deliberate relocation in case of the threat of nuclear attack.

Originally Posted by Olefin

by the way I dont agree with a lot of what is in V2 for one very good reason - the butt kicking it gives the French which sounds much worse than what they took in V1

Please specify what the differences are so we all know. To my knowledge, 2.x is by and large simply cut and pasted from V1 with only relatively minor changes to update the back story to better match real life events (such as the German reunification). 2.x also extends the history backwards in time from the V1 start point of 1996 to 1989. http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3109

[Olefin]

from V2.2

"France: Although ostensibly neutral in the war, France was still subjected to nuclear attacks to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO. Damage was largely confined to the coasts, but the resulting casualties were severe.

The riots and civil confusion caused by the war and by the hordes of refugees pouring across the borders forced the central government to close the borders, then occupy all territories west of the Rhine in order to prevent the country from being overwhelmed.

The military, to enforce the restrictions, has established a free-fire zone within 50 kilometers east of the Rhine, commonly called LaZoneMorte (the Dead Zone). The border is officially closed to non-French citizens (informally, bribes will get you in no matter what your origin if you have visible means of support). The border with Spain is also closed, but is permeable to smugglers.

Part of a thriving black market is dominated by the Union Corse (the Corsican criminal underworld). The central government has been forced to become increasingly repressive as conditions worsen, but life in most areas is onerous but tolerable. Some areas (the mountains, especially) are in open rebellion against the central government, and martial law is in effect almost everywhere.

The government of the southern departments is incredibly corrupt, largely because it is totally dominated by the Union Corse. Marseilles is the largest undamaged city, although it is in bad shape compared to its prewar condition. It represents the link between what remains of trade in Europe and the seaborne merchants of the eastern Mediterranean, and is totally under the control of the Corsicans.

Most of France is classified as organized (mostly by the French government/military, in some areas in the south by the Union Corse), with a few areas in the mountains disputed or independent. The area west of the Rhine River and east of the old border is a combination of terrorized, insular and cantonments. LaZone Morte is devastated"


V1 mentions nothing in any released module or article that I have seen (maybe you have one I havent seen in which case please tell me) about the southern part of the country being run by the Union Corse and that parts of the mountains are either disputed or independent.

The fact that Marseilles is the largest undamaged city and that it is totally dominated by the Corsicans appears nowhere that I have seen.

Also this line - Some areas (the mountains, especially) are in open rebellion against the central government, and martial law is in effect almost everywhere. - appears nowhere that I can find

As for "Although ostensibly neutral in the war, France was still subjected to nuclear attacks to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO. Damage was largely confined to the coasts, but the resulting casualties were severe."

In V1 the French and Belgians were described as hit the lightest and their casualties are not described as severe

If you have sections of your own country in rebellion why are you sending troops into Germany and the Netherlands and Africa and the Middle East? Why isnt the FAR being sent home instead of being sent to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Those are exactly who you need to use in situations like that - i.e. light elite troops.

V1 makes it sound like ports and naval bases and some refineries were hit but not to the level of severe casualties and a country where a big part of it is under the rule of the Mob.

V1 shows a pretty much intact country taking advantage of the war to re-establish its place in the world and its former colonies

V2 shows a country that cant even control its internal borders let alone reach out overseas to take over new ones.

at the least V2.2 means you would have to rewrite the RDF to show the worse state the French are in compared to V1. I dont see the France of V2.2 sending 48 top of the line fighter jets and most of the FAR to the Middle East with their own country in that kind of shape before they sent that force out.

(compared to the US which sent out a similar force but did it before the US was struck by the nukes in the main, not afterward as the French did)

[Targan]

I'm inclined to keep it nice and simple in any future campaigns I run - the UN facilities and staff in NYC relocate to Switzerland in '96 or '97 and following the nuclear exchanges of '97 and '98 the UN basically ceases to have any relevance anymore but what remains of its staff and resources are propped up by the Franco-Belgian Union for future political purposes.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, the UN did indeed stay put, but there were no nukes used, and neither was there much threat of them.
In T2K, 1996-97 the situation is VERY different. The UN is sitting right in the heart of a big bullseye, and they know it. As an organisation struggling with relevancy, I just don't buy them moving to any country that is in conflict with any of it's neighbours.
It's far more likely in my opinion they'd go somewhere basically neutral such as New Zealand, Japan, Madagascar, Spain, Portugal, or even somewhere in Africa.

As for moving every time there's a border dispute, when was the last time the US was involved in one of them?

I could be sarcastic and say currently, but in reality it was about a hundred years ago.. in the same area we have problems now. But that's another story. Nuff said.

As to what became of the UN. Unless they pulled chocks early, they are doomed to the city. Perhaps some got home, but some perhaps died in NYC.. or other parts of the US if they tried to follow the flow of refugees. Who knows? It's your world.