LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

lol

and now you know and knowing is half the battle!

And for the other half?

[Olefin]

Just started posting on this forum. A question was asked a while back about what happened to the M8 AGS Prototypes. Well i can answer you on one. Its still at BAE Systems (ex United Defence) in York PA, still fully operational and is shown to potential customers from time to time.

And compared to the LAV-75 its definitely a weapon system that can take tanks and APC's on and kill them. They were due to go into production in 1996.

I am in the process of writing a Twilight 2000 Lions of Twilight module (using material posted on threads here) and the M8 AGS will make an appearance there as armor that was shipped out to Kenya in 1997 that came from the original production run.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Just started posting on this forum. A question was asked a while back about what happened to the M8 AGS Prototypes. Well i can answer you on one. Its still at BAE Systems (ex United Defence) in York PA, still fully operational and is shown to potential customers from time to time.

And compared to the LAV-75 its definitely a weapon system that can take tanks and APC's on and kill them. They were due to go into production in 1996.

I am in the process of writing a Twilight 2000 Lions of Twilight module (using material posted on threads here) and the M8 AGS will make an appearance there as armor that was shipped out to Kenya in 1997 that came from the original production run.

That's pretty cool; it's good to know that the AGS isn't sitting in front of some office block, rotting away.

As cool as the LAV-75 is "on paper", I agree it's really not that great hence my (decidedly non-canon) "LAV-105" which is closer to the AGS at least in weapon performance.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Just started posting on this forum. A question was asked a while back about what happened to the M8 AGS Prototypes. Well i can answer you on one. Its still at BAE Systems (ex United Defence) in York PA, still fully operational and is shown to potential customers from time to time.

And compared to the LAV-75 its definitely a weapon system that can take tanks and APC's on and kill them. They were due to go into production in 1996.

I am in the process of writing a Twilight 2000 Lions of Twilight module (using material posted on threads here) and the M8 AGS will make an appearance there as armor that was shipped out to Kenya in 1997 that came from the original production run.

re: M-8 AGS

there was a news article somewhere that four prototypes were deployed with the 82nd to Iraq. It can't seem to find it anymore, so it was probably just talk or wishful thinking.

Wikipedia article on the M-8 says that they tested a hybrid electric version of the M-8 AGS with 120mm gun. not sure about the availability of hybrid engines in T2k, but an upgunned 120mm AGS would be interesting.

[Olefin]

Yes they did - I know its here where I work and it looks like a tank killer to me

[Targan]

Welcome to the forums Olefin. I'm sure you have some very useful info for this forum (not sure how much you'll be allowed to tell us though!).

Originally Posted by Olefin

Yes they did - I know its here where I work and it looks like a tank killer to me

Are you referring to the hybrid electric version of the M-8 AGS with 120mm gun that boogiedowndonovan mentioned? And if so is it possible for you to post a photo? I for one would love to see such a vehicle, it sounds awesome.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Olefin

M8 AGS specs - need to convert it fully for the game but this will give you the flavor of the vehicle

M8 Armored Gun System
Armor: Level 1 – protects against small arms fire and shell splinters
Level 3 – protects against light hand-held anti-tank weapons
Crew; 3 (Commander, Gunner, Driver)
Armament: XM35 105mm rifled gun (30 rounds), 7.62mm Coaxial MG (4500 rounds), 12.7mm M2 Browning cupola mount (210 rounds)
Fuel: AvGas, diesel, alcohol
Fuel; 150 gallons (567.81 Litres)
Range: 280 miles(451km)
Speed: 45 mph (72 km/h) Road, 30 mph (48 km/h)
Vehicles shipped to Kenya had the Level 3 armor installed on them. If it is removed it can be airdropped with Level 1 protection by a C-130.

If you can get your hands on the Eastern Europe Sourcebook, it has game specs for the M8. My copy is in storage, but I'm sure someone else here has it handy.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Targan

Are you referring to the hybrid electric version of the M-8 AGS with 120mm gun that boogiedowndonovan mentioned? And if so is it possible for you to post a photo? I for one would love to see such a vehicle, it sounds awesome.

It looks pretty much just like the baseline M8, but with a bigger gun. Just do a search for "Thunderbolt AGS" or "M8 Thunderbolt".

But I second the request for a current picture and any updates on the program.

[Sith]

The 120mm AGS was a proof of concept, and that's it. They just wanted to show that a 120 could work on a light vehicle. This knowledge went into the CV90120.

Also, the AGS was designed to be built on the Bradley production line. This was done to reduce cost and show the government that they had the capacity to mass-produce right away. With this in mind, I would think that Bradley production would have priority in the Twilight timeline.

Edit: Not sure if the Bradley production line is in York or not, something tells me that it's not.

[Sith]

To my knowledge, the AGS had it's last blast in 1999 with the PPD on Fort Knox that ultimately selected the Stryker. Since then BAE shows them off here and there with the hopes of a foreign sale, it's basically an off-the-shelf item. It's 1990s technology though, only a solid buyer would warrant an upgrade at this point.

I believe a few were loaned back to the Army at one point, mainly to test MGS tactical concepts before it's arrival. Not sure about this though.

[Sith]

Yeah, I figured you worked for BAE.

Thanks, Something in the back of my head was ringing California. Now I remember that they were using production on the Santa Clara line as a selling point in the early AGS material, changing to York later on.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Per the wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAV_600

...the LAV-600 is used by the US Army. But in what role? I thought the Stryker MGS filled the "thinks-its-a-tank-but-it-isn't" niche.

[ArmySGT.]

I think a few where bought as test beds for the stryker MGS for feasibility studies.

Every Stryker chassis was needed to fill the Brigades and a Lav 600 is somewhat cheaper.

Besides all anybody wanted to know was can you fire a full 105mm SABOT 90 degree off centerline and the vehicles doesn't tip over.

[Olefin]

For Twilight 2000 you may have seen a significant amount of these vehicles going into the late war light infantry divisions along with the AGS to try to give those units some ability to deal with enemy armor. Especially after the LAV-75 light tank turned out to be unable to deal with any enemy armor above an APC or armored car.

The 105mm gun means you actually have a chance to knock out Soviet armor where with the LAV-75 unless you are going for a mobility kill (i.e. shoot for the tracks and the suspension) you basically have no chance against anything more modern than a T-55 - and even then you might not get a real kill.

And it having the same gun as what is on the Stingray light tank would offer benefits as well - i.e. if the barrel was good to go still on a knocked out or out of commission Stingray it could be used for changeout, if necessary, on a LAV 600.

[Olefin]

By the way speaking of the Stingray - the ammo load for it in the game in both the V1 and V2 versions is incorrect

In the game it says it has 36 round of main gun ammo

Its actually only 32, with 8 ready rounds and 24 stowed in hull

And its only sales were to Thailand so for those playing the Bangkok module the tank should be added to the Bangkok Cesspool of the Orient lineup of available tanks for the Thais.

[ArmySGT.]

The 75mm on the LAV -75 should be penetrating hull side and turret side on t-72s and t-80s.

It is a hyper velocity kinetic penetrator.

[Raellus]

The LAV-300, upon which the LAV-600 is based, was used by the Panamanian defense forces (armed with a 90mm gun) and may have seen combat against U.S. forces during the intervention in 1989.

I read through the LAV-75, Stingray, M8 AGS thread again today and I think it was really cool how a bunch of us collaborated to create something kind of new and very cool for T2K- the M20 (LAV-75A1) Ridgway LAV/AGS: the LAV-25 chasis with an unmanned 105mm gun turret.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The LAV-300, upon which the LAV-600 is based, was used by the Panamanian defense forces (armed with a 90mm gun) and may have seen combat against U.S. forces during the intervention in 1989.

I read through the LAV-75, Stingray, M8 AGS thread again today and I think it was really cool how a bunch of us collaborated to create something kind of new and very cool for T2K- the M20 (LAV-75A1) Ridgway LAV/AGS: the LAV-25 chasis with an unmanned 105mm gun turret.

Agreed! tho I rather like my LAV-105 (LAV-75 with a remote 105 turret - was actually one of the RDF/LT proposals) too

[ArmySGT.]

LAV-75







TankNet thread on the LAV-75

[schnickelfritz]

Where were the pictures of the prototype taken again?
Thanks-
Dave

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

Where were the pictures of the prototype taken again?
Thanks-
Dave

Probably in the Aberdeen motor pool, waiting prep for display.

[Targan]

So sad to see it out in the open and rusting

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

So sad to see it out in the open and rusting

I got the same feeling

[schnickelfritz]

Indeed...that would also explain the German Pzkpfw Ausf N sitting next to it.
-Dave

[Panther Al]

You know, I still think the LAV75 (with family) would have made a great Cav Light AFV. Better than the M1/M2 mix that the Heavy Cav use(d).

[ArmySGT.]

Since our current technology has gotten the Airburst programmable munitions working this could be a viable system as intended.

Add fixed TOW launchers or fixed Javelin launchers to each side of the turret.

[Olefin]

Personally I prefer the BAE M8 AGS to the LAV-75 - especially since I had the chance to get up close and personal with it the last time we put it in our "garage" to work on it for potential customers.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Personally I prefer the BAE M8 AGS to the LAV-75

The M8 AGS is an impressive system and it's, what, a decade and a half ahead of the LAV-75, technologically speaking? I'm surprised it wasn't fielded by US forces IRL.

[Panther Al]

Agreed: The M8 is *much* better than the LAV75: but in the 80's, the LAV was what we had when we was playing around with how to equip an Armoured Cavalry unit.

Honestly, with the scenario that TW2K (V1 or V2), I don't see the M8 ever being developed. I feel with the Cold War staying on the front burner, they would have gone with the horse they had: the LAV75.

Now I don't know anything about TWv3, but I would hazard a guess the M8 could easily be pushed into service.

[Raellus]

Thanks for merging the threads, Targan. For some reason, it doesn't look the two photos of the rusting prototype transferred over. I'd love to have them in here for posterity. It's really a cool little vehicle.

If someone could somehow (Photoshop?) create images/schematics of the LAV-75 hull with a 105mm gun turret like the one the Stryker AGS uses, that would be awesome.