LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Do these numbers look OK? I basically averaged the M113 and M8 stats and made a few tweaks. I want to make sure I'm not way off on any of this before I publish.

What's wrong with using Pauls stats? http://www.pmulcahy.com/best_stuff_t...never_were.htm

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What's wrong with using Pauls stats? http://www.pmulcahy.com/best_stuff_t...never_were.htm

Nothing at all. I just thought I'd try to come up with my own. In most cases, I like his better. He's given me permission to use his stats but I see a couple of things a little differently, though, and I'm not sure how he feels about tweaks. I figured that it might be better to just go with my own stats than to bastardize Paul's. It'd be great if he weighed in.

Here are Paul's stats for comparison:

M20 Ridgway Game Statistics (v2.2) [on Paul's site, it is called the LAV-75A4]

Price: $392,600 (S/R)
Fire Control: +4
Armament: 105mm gun, MAG MG coaxial, M2HB or MAG MG (C)
Stabilization: Good
Ammo: 18x105mm in magazine, 18x105mm in internal storage, 3000X7.62mm, 500x.50 BMG
Fuel Type: D,BD,A
Load: 500kg
Veh Wt: 14.01 tonnes
Crew: 3
Mnt: 9
Night Vision: FLIR (G, C), Image Intensification (G, C), Passive IR (D)
Radiological: Shielded

Tr Mov: 170/119
Com Mov: 43/30
Fuel Cap: 409
Fuel Con: 202

Combat Statistics
Config: Veh TF: 10 HF: 19
Susp: T4 TS: 8 HS: 10
TR: 4 HR: 4


I think that the hull front armor would be thicker. It's very sloped and I think that would make it hard to penetrate with AP or HEAT ammo. In the BYB, the Marder II has a HF armor rating of 25. I also think that the vehicle weight is a little light. It's only 4 tonnes more than a standard M113; the Marder II is 29 tonnes, and the AGS with supplemental armor is 49.5 tonnes. I think the Ridgway should be somewhere in between those two figures.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I figured that it might be better to just go with my own stats than to bastardize Paul's. It'd be great if he weighed in.

A collaboration between two greatly respected members of the forum? Sounds good to me!

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think that the hull front armor would be thicker. It's very sloped and I think that would make it hard to penetrate with AP or HEAT ammo. In the BYB, the Marder II has a HF armor rating of 25. I also think that the vehicle weight is a little light. It's only 4 tonnes more than a standard M113; the Marder II is 29 tonnes, and the AGS with supplemental armor is 49.5 tonnes. I think the Ridgway should be somewhere in between those two figures.

The weight difference between the two versions is significant (yours is basically double that of Paul's, Rae). That would have to be more than just armour, I'm thinking powerplant and drivetrain differences as well. I'd love to see you guys brainstorm a version you were both happy with.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

A collaboration between two greatly respected members of the forum? Sounds good to me!

The weight difference between the two versions is significant (yours is basically double that of Paul's, Rae). That would have to be more than just armour, I'm thinking powerplant and drivetrain differences as well. I'd love to see you guys brainstorm a version you were both happy with.

I'd be happy to split the difference. I figure that because of the extra armor and the 105mm main-gun system, the M20 would be heavier than a standard M113, but without a conventional armored turret, it would be lighter than the AGS. The Marder seems like the best match, chasis-wise, but its turret/gun is smaller than the Ridgway's so I figure that the latter would be heavier still.

How does 25 tonnes sound?

[Legbreaker]

The armour doesn't need to be heavy. The Marder, and virtually all APCs, tanks, etc, have to have armour strong enough to withstand a few hits now and then. By their very nature they're going into harms way just to carry out their job of transporting troops across the fire-swept battlefield, or bully their way over the top of the enemy (I know it's more complicated than that, but I think you get the point).

The LAV-75, etc is another beast entirely. A light armoured vehicle, it's primary mission is to put fire down upon the enemy (as well as scouting, etc of course). Stealth, concealment, and above all, fighting from hull down positions is where it's all at for this class of vehicle. If it needs to expose it's hull to observation, let alone enemy fire, it's mission is already a bust.

Therefore, I'd say a thin armour rated/hoped to protect against shrapnel and the occasional small arms fire should be more than sufficient for it's intended role. Optional add on armour packages and ERA may be available, but only issued in extremis.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The armour doesn't need to be heavy. The Marder, and virtually all APCs, tanks, etc, have to have armour strong enough to withstand a few hits now and then. By their very nature they're going into harms way just to carry out their job of transporting troops across the fire-swept battlefield, or bully their way over the top of the enemy (I know it's more complicated than that, but I think you get the point).

The LAV-75, etc is another beast entirely. A light armoured vehicle, it's primary mission is to put fire down upon the enemy (as well as scouting, etc of course). Stealth, concealment, and above all, fighting from hull down positions is where it's all at for this class of vehicle. If it needs to expose it's hull to observation, let alone enemy fire, it's mission is already a bust.

Therefore, I'd say a thin armour rated/hoped to protect against shrapnel and the occasional small arms fire should be more than sufficient for it's intended role. Optional add on armour packages and ERA may be available, but only issued in extremis.

I agree with your statement regarding tactical doctrine when operating in the anti-armor role. Still, the Chinese, using the LAV-75 primarily as a a tank destroyers and MBT stand-in, found that it would not survive long on the modern battlefield without additional armor protection. The U.S., much more casualty conscious than the PLA, would have concurred and insisted on adding hull armor to the upgunned version. As an assault gun (the primary role of the LAV-75, as per the v1.0 USAVG), the Ridgway would be advancing in support of dismounted infantry, and would not have the luxury of operating from the hull down position. Therefore, it would need additional armor in order to survive attacks from enemy AT weapons and/or the occasional enemy AFV. When pressed into service as a tank, this would be doubly so. Therefore, supplemental armor is a must.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

What's the difference between FLIR and passive IR?