The Regular US Army in 1968

[mikeo80]

Very interesting part of American military history. One very minor nit that needs to be picked. Fort Bragg is in North Carolina, not Georgia.

My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

Very interesting part of American military history. One very minor nit that needs to be picked. Fort Bragg is in North Carolina, not Georgia.

My $0.02

Mike

What can I say....I only had three cups of semi-coffee....this de-caff is for the birds!

[dragoon500ly]

Considering how much of the available manpower, equipment and aircraft were deployed to SE Asia, it would have been a great time for the Russians to "liberate" Western Europe.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

What can I say....I only had three cups of semi-coffee....this de-caff is for the birds!

What??? An American drinking de caff???? That stuff is for sissies.

I sentence you to a pot of day old, cold coffee as punishment for your crime.



My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

The impact of the Vietnam War on Europe is always misunderstood. Many of the divisions in West Germany were significantly undermanned and had critical shortages in NCOs and officers. According to the Congressional Records, on average, these units ran as much as 25-30% understrength in the key leadership positions.

Critical communications equipment and spares were stripped to support the Vietnam War, when the AN/PRC-77 radio entered service, it was deployed to SE Asia, US Army Europe maintained PRC-25s for almost three years after their replacement.

Artillery ammunition was removed in such large amounts that there were critical shortages in heavy artillery ammunition. Shortly after the Tet Offensive, stocks of 155mm+ was reduced to less than seven days stocks as part of a rush to restock the heavy usage in Vietnam.

While the National Guard/Army Reserve did enjoy an increase in personnel, many of whom did enlist in order to not see service in Vietnam, their equipment levels, in 1968, was poor. Many NG units were still equipped with WWII/Korean War-era M-1 Garands and M-191A4 machine guns, and this was as late as 1972! The Guard was still operating M-46/47 tanks and was just starting to be equipped with M-48s as the new M-60 tanks were coming into service.

Would the US have been able to maintain a major conflict in SE Asia and stop a Soviet attack into Europe? It's an intresting what if.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The impact of the Vietnam War on Europe is always misunderstood. Many of the divisions in West Germany were significantly undermanned and had critical shortages in NCOs and officers. According to the Congressional Records, on average, these units ran as much as 25-30% understrength in the key leadership positions.

A fascinating book that touched on this was Michael Lee Lanning's "The battles of peace." He'd commanded a rifle platoon and company in Vietnam (as a lieutenant), then once a captain, a mech company in 1970s Germany. His descriptions of the contrasts were interesting.

Artillery ammunition was removed in such large amounts that there were critical shortages in heavy artillery ammunition. Shortly after the Tet Offensive, stocks of 155mm+ was reduced to less than seven days stocks as part of a rush to restock the heavy usage in Vietnam.

I've also read that the AF and Navy dropped so many bombs that planes were sent north with 1/2 loads (or less!), and that we had to buy back bombs we'd sold to West Germany.

Many NG units were still equipped with WWII/Korean War-era M-1 Garands and M-1919A4 machine guns, and this was as late as 1972!

Famously, you can see that in the many pictures of the Ohio NG at Kent State were carrying M-1s.

Would the US have been able to maintain a major conflict in SE Asia and stop a Soviet attack into Europe? It's an interesting what if.

Well, the Soviets were as screwed up as we now know they were, so it would have been a mess. 1968 would have been particularly bad, as the North Koreans were definitely heating things up that year, too. Some have called 1968-69 the Second Korean War. The Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia that year, France was having student riots. NATO would have had its hands full, and the US would be a maximum stretch. Sounds like a recipe for nuclear escalation.

And, if you believe some authors, someone in the KGB sent the K-129 to launch a nuke at Hawaii, pretending to be the lone Chinese SSBN. That would have gone off 5 days before my birthday-- that was chilling to realize, let me tell you.

[The Rifleman]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The impact of the Vietnam War on Europe is always misunderstood. Many of the divisions in West Germany were significantly undermanned and had critical shortages in NCOs and officers. According to the Congressional Records, on average, these units ran as much as 25-30% understrength in the key leadership positions.

Critical communications equipment and spares were stripped to support the Vietnam War, when the AN/PRC-77 radio entered service, it was deployed to SE Asia, US Army Europe maintained PRC-25s for almost three years after their replacement.

Artillery ammunition was removed in such large amounts that there were critical shortages in heavy artillery ammunition. Shortly after the Tet Offensive, stocks of 155mm+ was reduced to less than seven days stocks as part of a rush to restock the heavy usage in Vietnam.

While the National Guard/Army Reserve did enjoy an increase in personnel, many of whom did enlist in order to not see service in Vietnam, their equipment levels, in 1968, was poor. Many NG units were still equipped with WWII/Korean War-era M-1 Garands and M-191A4 machine guns, and this was as late as 1972! The Guard was still operating M-46/47 tanks and was just starting to be equipped with M-48s as the new M-60 tanks were coming into service.

Would the US have been able to maintain a major conflict in SE Asia and stop a Soviet attack into Europe? It's an intresting what if.

Its ALWAYS been like that with national guard equipment during "peacetime" even today. When the Active army had M16A2s, we had their M16A1s. When they had M1 tanks, we had M60A3s. When they started converting to the M1A1, we got their old M1s.

BUT when it comes time for war, this changes. The government has more stuff in storage then any of us could ever imagine. When my national guard unit was deployed in 2004, suddenly all new small arms, machine guns and so on appeared. I agree with many of the comments mentioned above, but I still think you undervalue the role of the national guard in a total war, especially prior to 1993, when the guard was HUGE in manpower, and before the army reserve was decimated.

[dragoon500ly]

Believe me, the government has stockpiles that NOONE can ever believe!!!

But perhaps the worst part of Vietnam was that it was not a total war. LBJ, among others, made the decision not to approach Congress for a decleration of war and refused to call up the National Guard/Reserves.

This kept the Gaurds and Reserves out of the war (expect for those personnel who did volunteer) and led to the ruthless stripping of equipment and munitions from around the world.

[schnickelfritz]

I am reading "The Generals" by Thomas E. Ricks now and just worked my way through Vietnam and into the 1980's.

It's really worth a read, particularly on Vietnam and the aftermath. It made me want to throw the book at the wall...I though I knew how much of a dumba$$ LBJ and Westie were....I had no idea.

-Dave

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Believe me, the government has stockpiles that NOONE can ever believe!!!

But perhaps the worst part of Vietnam was that it was not a total war. LBJ, among others, made the decision not to approach Congress for a decleration of war and refused to call up the National Guard/Reserves.

This kept the Gaurds and Reserves out of the war (expect for those personnel who did volunteer) and led to the ruthless stripping of equipment and munitions from around the world.

I think a Pennsylvania NG unit volunteered through out the Vietnam conflict.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

What??? An American drinking de caff???? That stuff is for sissies.

I sentence you to a pot of day old, cold coffee as punishment for your crime.



My $0.02

Mike

And I yearn for the good old days when the coffee was strong if the spoon stood upright...but alas! The march of time is catching up with the old man. Next up is puffed oatmeal flavored air for breakfast, that funny orange-tasting stuff to keep one regular and the sheer joy (NOT) of that ole prostate exam.

This 'ell getting old!!!!

All well, I content myself in the knowledge that I may not be the fastest, anymore, but I have the wisdom and treachery to keep the young'ins in line!!!!

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And I yearn for the good old days when the coffee was strong if the spoon stood upright...but alas! The march of time is catching up with the old man. Next up is puffed oatmeal flavored air for breakfast, that funny orange-tasting stuff to keep one regular and the sheer joy (NOT) of that ole prostate exam.

This 'ell getting old!!!!

All well, I content myself in the knowledge that I may not be the fastest, anymore, but I have the wisdom and treachery to keep the young'ins in line!!!!

No offense, Dragoon, but I think I am older than you. ( Born 1953)

So yes, wisdom and treachery are great tools....just don't piss off the young guy who will out draw you...

So, shoot first....

My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

No offense, Dragoon, but I think I am older than you. ( Born 1953)

So yes, wisdom and treachery are great tools....just don't piss off the young guy who will out draw you...

So, shoot first....

My $0.02

Mike

1959 here! And I never worry about the young'ins beating me to the draw; a knife in the back is so much more reliable!!!

[dragoon500ly]

Perhaps the major impact on the Army in Vietnam was the one year (13 months for the Marines!). As soon as that 11-B begins to become an effective jungle-fighter, BAM! He's back in the states. There are numerous stories of as much as HALF (and there are accounts of at least 2 companies losing 2/3 of their men?!?!) of a rifle company rotating home at the same time.

So while the NVA/VC stayed in the field for years, the GIs were often kids straight out of Basic.

And to add insult to injury, MACV/DOD adopted the policy of assigning a officer to 6 months in a combat position and then 6 months in a staff position. The official reason was to allow as many officers as possible to get combat experience...

There are numerous words that can discribe the impact of these two policies...most of them are four letter and insult the intelligence of the high ranking officers and civilian leadership!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

No offense, Dragoon, but I think I am older than you. ( Born 1953)

Mike

Jesus Christ, and I thought I was old (born 1962)...you're older than my big sister (born 1959).

[dragoon500ly]

The modified TO&E for an Infantry Battalion in SE Asia is of intrest:

Headquarters and Headquarters Company with 15 officers, 2 warrant officers and 147 enlisted men. With 9 2.5-ton truck; 4 3/4-ton trucks; 9 jeeps. Small arms included 2 M-60 GPMGs, 8 M-79 GLs, 15 pistols and 149 M-16s.

Company A, B, C & D, each with 6 officers and 158 enlisted men. With 5 jeeps. Small arms included 6 M-60 GPMGs, 24 M-79 GLs, 9 pistols, 149 M-16s, 3 81mm mortars and 3 90mm recoilless rifles.

Company E (Combat Support Company) with 4 officers and 96 enlisted men. With 4 3/4-ton trucks, 4 jeeps. Small arms included 6 M-79 GLs, 4 pistols, 96 M-16s, 4 4.2-inch mortars and 12 flamethrowers.

The Rifle Company headquarters consisted of two officers and two enlisted men, with three rifle platoons (one officer and 41 enlisted men) and one mortar platoon (one officer and 25 enlisted men).

Each rifle platoon had a platoon headquarters (one officer and 2 enlisted men), three rifle squads (10 men each) and one weapons squad (9 men). The weapons squad would leave their recoilless rifles back in the base camp and function was a fourth maneuver squad.

The mortar platoon had a headquarters (one officer and 7 men) and three mortar squads (6 men). The 81mm mortars were often left back in the base camp and the platoon used was a fourth maneuver platoon.