To Fortify? That is the question...

[kalos72]

All good information...

But would YOU put some sort of physical wall/obstacle around the entire outside of your towns if able? Thinking along the 25 miles long mark....

The 43rd MP did...

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by kalos72

All good information...

But would YOU put some sort of physical wall/obstacle around the entire outside of your towns if able? Thinking along the 25 miles long mark....

The 43rd MP did...

If I had the ability, in a post disaster world? YES!

[kato13]

According to this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...102/Ch6.htm#s3

a trench 40233.6 Meters (25 miles) by 1.5 meters by 3.5 meters would take 2 M9 ACE 603.504 hours to complete.

Since the formulas are for anti tank ditches I would assume that number would go higher if you are on anything other than smooth ground.

Base fuel usage for the M9 (109 per period*), two of them working for 603.5 hours would be ~32891 liters of diesel.

* Source: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_engi...les/us_tev.htm

[kalos72]

Without giving up too much data...

32k diesel is roughly one days production at this point in the story line...I am ok with that.

The next questions is manpower.

What good is a fence that isnt patrolled or monitored?

Assume a guard tower every 500-1000 meters over 25 miles would be 40-80 towers. Two people per tower at all times? Thats like 100-150 people per shift...3-4-5 shifts? And that will not count active patrols within the perimeter or at guard posts/gate guards and such.

Ouch.

[weswood]

I don't know about Victoria, but a lot of major cities have a "loop" freeway around the central city. Houston has Loop 610, San Antonio has the 410 Loop, and if I remember New Orleans has one also.

If the town in question has a loop, block off on/off ramps, clear the loop itself for patrol vehicles. A few checkpoints/entrances at underpasses.

[weswood]

I don't know about Victoria, but a lot of major cities have a "loop" freeway around the central city. Houston has Loop 610, San Antonio has the 410 Loop, and if I remember New Orleans has one also.

If the town in question has a loop, block off on/off ramps, clear the loop itself for patrol vehicles. A few checkpoints/entrances at underpasses.

[stormlion1]

All true, but citys will be death traps so fortifying them is just a slow wait for the food to run out. Fortifying a town in the countryside is easier especially if the terrain helps or you control the roads and the fields. Fortify the town itself and set up manned roadblocks and near any power stations or food producing areas set up a firebase to respond if there is trouble. That and patrols, lots of patrols. Might be easier than digging the ditch from heck and putting up a wall and then having to man it.

[Brother in Arms]

I had a game once were a cantonment had a earthen work wall ( not actual facines and gabbions but hulks of cars and the like covered in earth and turf) that was topped by a dry stacked stone wall.

The citizens of the Canton would punish those convicted of crimes to mend the wall. In some lesser cases ( like a character getting drunk and fighting) they were sentenced to this hard labor for a period of time (several weeks)and then they reintegrated into society they were given slight rations but unlimited water. However serious criminals like thieves,rapist, murderers were sentencing more harshly. Like when a group of marauders tried to infiltrate the wall and failed. Foolishly they surrendered and were caught by the citizen of the canton. These unfortunate souls were sentenced to build the wall till death. So they were forced to do hard labor staking stones until they dropped dead from starvation. They were given plenty of water to drink but never given food. Several tried to injure themselves so they couldn't stack stones and if that happened or they got too weak from starvation they were beaten to death by the cantons security force and there body over the wall.

in other instances the wall was used when refugees came from the outside and wanted to become a citizen of the canton. They were sentenced to mend the wall for a period of time and earned there food and water by stacking stones, as well as extracting the stones from fields. After a period of this labor they earned there citizen ship. If for some reason you couldn't work on the wall you may be sentenced to work in another form of labor. One instance I remember in particular were a soldier had a consensual encounter with a young woman, but she got pregnant and her parents did not approve. He was sentenced to mend the wall and then was forced to leave the canton. But she was sentenced to work in a hemp field until the day she gave birth.

Brother in Arms

[robert.munsey]

You would not have to. Everyone here is forgetting what we did in Baghdad in 2007, we fenced the whole entire thing off with Alaska Barriers, and sub divided the city to keep them from killing each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Baghdad_crackdown


In this case you would make the walls large and then you would not have to have a large set of guard towers.

Now the wall versus someone attempting to get through. The basic line is that they will always get through, it just takes effort, will and patience.
However you take in the force (police or internal intelligence) that monitors the actions of the people. They will know if someone new comes in. People usually do. They know the new ones in the neighborhood and who does not belong. So you do not necessarily have to wall off the city, just make it hard to get in and once you are in, well you are an outsider....and outsiders are not well liked in a T2K setting. They are most of the time viewed as a threat.

Now what most people forget on the old wall and siege warfare in the capability of the force inside has the capacity to counter attack. If the force inside the wall looses the capacity to 'sally forth' and counter attack. then this is where things go downhill for those inside the wall.

Also my vote is for walls as they are much easier to build then a dry moat. Like the others have pointed out, first it could be debris, then hesco/gambons, then maybe cement walls.

Also think defense in depth and a reaction force. If the initial barrier is a series of little walls (belts) then this also allows the counter attack force time to react and plan.

Just my two cents
v/r
Muns

Originally Posted by kalos72

Without giving up too much data...

32k diesel is roughly one days production at this point in the story line...I am ok with that.

The next questions is manpower.

What good is a fence that isnt patrolled or monitored?

Assume a guard tower every 500-1000 meters over 25 miles would be 40-80 towers. Two people per tower at all times? Thats like 100-150 people per shift...3-4-5 shifts? And that will not count active patrols within the perimeter or at guard posts/gate guards and such.

Ouch.

[robert.munsey]

That is if those M9 ACE hydraulic hoses would stay in operation.....

Originally Posted by kato13

According to this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...102/Ch6.htm#s3

a trench 40233.6 Meters (25 miles) by 1.5 meters by 3.5 meters would take 2 M9 ACE 603.504 hours to complete.

Since the formulas are for anti tank ditches I would assume that number would go higher if you are on anything other than smooth ground.

Base fuel usage for the M9 (109 per period*), two of them working for 603.5 hours would be ~32891 liters of diesel.

* Source: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_engi...les/us_tev.htm