Scandinavia during T2K?

[Olefin]

if you had to rate it the US marginally wins the war, the Chinese and Soviets definitely lose, the UK wins more than the US as it is recovering more quickly due to its smaller land mass to control and reclaim and the French win just because they dont directly join in the fun as everyone else did

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

The French "win" because they are least nuked and don't have hostile armies or hordes of marauders marching back and forth across their territory. Because of this, they are the dominant power in 2300AD.

Originally Posted by Olefin

The French win just because they dont directly join in the fun as everyone else did

By that logic Australia and New Zealand may also have come out pretty well.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

By that logic Australia and New Zealand may also have come out pretty well.

quite possibly, but the RAN and RAAF are decimated in conflict with the Indonesians in T2k v2/2.2. I would assume the same for the RNZN and RNZAF.

I guess that would explain the Aussies and French teaming up for some ops in T2k V2.2. One of the adventure cards has some wisecrack about the Aussie-Frog "non irradiated nations" alliance.

but then in 2300, the Aussies and USA are closely aligned?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well to be fair, Australia does "win" and not just in a small way.
Keeping in mind that T2k was developed from "The Great Game"** and is part of the history of the 2300AD universe, Australia is a significant power in that game. So yeah, after the Twilight War, Australia does have a win and takes New Zealand (and most of Oceania) along for the ride.


** The history of the creation of Twilight:2000 - apologies for the repetition to all those who already know all this...

The Great Game was a political-economic-military simulation done to create the history for the 2300AD game and it involved a third World War at the beginning of a 300 year period that ends with the year (surprise, surprise), 2300.
This war was known in-house as the Twilight War because it wrecked the world enough to allow certain changes to the political/national entities on Earth thus the original entities declined and then new ones grew to take their place. It was the "twilight" of the old world.

The lead people behind T2k were returning from a convention when during the trip back home, they came up with the notion of a modern military RPG but it needed to be free of the command structures of real world militaries so that it would be fun to game. As they developed the idea, it was decided that the best setting was a devastating world war which coincidentally was exactly what they had happen in the game history of 2300AD. So although chronologically, T2k occurs before 2300AD, the games were created in the reverse order.

In this way, they developed the background for Twilight: 2000 1st Edition - later editions have their backgrounds altered to fit more with the real world of the late 1980s-early 1990s. A lot of the background to the Twilight War is the result of the GDW members playing out the war as part of The Great Game. Some people have claimed that various aspects such as Italy leaving NATO and later attacking Germany are stupid and unrealistic - these things happened in the The Great Game and in some cases were a result of the various personalities (who controlled the different nations) competing amongst each other.
Other things were changed to make them more "gamey", e.g. the wholesale ruin of North America was implemented not just because of what happened in The Great Game, but also to allow the AD&D style adventures found in the European scenarios to continue when the PCs got back to the USA.

Being a bit of an arse about it, I find it amusing that some people who dabbled in T2k claim that various parts of it's background are unrealistic when I know that the background was imported wholesale from the end result of the Twilight War played out in The Great Game. These same people don't seem to have a problem if they play a WW2 wargame and have Germany win (or some smaller nation like Lithuania carves a new empire for itself free of the USSR etc. etc.) That's what the Twilight War was, a wargame played out amongst the GDW staff and the end result was used as the history for Twilight: 2000 (1st edition).

The wiki entry for 2300AD gives some clearer details (compared to my rambling monologue!) to its creation http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/2300_AD

[Targan]

In Traveller: 2300, access to the element tantalum is primarilly what determines whether a nation is a space power (and therefore a major terrestrial power) or not. Australia (well, Oceania really) punches well above its weight in the T2300 universe because as well as recovering well from the Twilight War and maintaining its close relationship with the US for the next 300 years, it has its own accessable tantalum reserves. Tantalum is what allows faster-than-light Stutterwarp drives to operate.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind also that it was made pretty clear later on that Twilight 2300 may or may not be the future of the Twilight 2000 world. And as has been stated here many times before not only do GM's have considerable freedom to change their gaming world, the players may also have a huge effect as well on the possible future of the game

as for AD&D - remember that the AD&D world is not one that is a destroyed world with almost no functioning goverments - the Greyhawk setting clearly showed a continent that had both wild and ungoverned areas where anything could happen as well as very civilized and settled areas where the rule of law was in effect (whether evil, good or neutral laws)

so you dont need a destroyed US to have an AD&D type game

as the UK guide showed a country can take one hell of a beating and still have both functioning safe zones and wide open areas the goverment hasnt been restored in and be very playable for Twilight 2000 - heck the UK has a functioning civilian government with elections, taxes and currency again by 2001 (in some areas but definitely not all) and yet there are huge opportunities for playing the game there

you dont need a destroyed US with almost no functioning government - thats not AD&D thats Aftermath

so when we argue about the game not making sense its more that the designers went a little too far in their destruction of the US to be able to foster an AD&D like situation in the US - you dont need to turn the whole US into the Pomarj or the Wild Coast or the Bandit Kingdoms or the Barrens just to make it AD&D - we had a lot of fun playing in Greyhawk in the civilized areas like Furyondy, the Great Kingdom and Urnst as well

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

so when we argue about the game not making sense its more that the designers went a little too far in their destruction of the US to be able to foster an AD&D like situation in the US - you dont need to turn the whole US into the Pomarj or the Wild Coast or the Bandit Kingdoms or the Barrens just to make it AD&D - we had a lot of fun playing in Greyhawk in the civilized areas like Furyondy, the Great Kingdom and Urnst as well

That's your opinion, and it's valid. For what it's worth, I happen to agree with you (for the most part). I think the issue for some here is the tone that some who share your opinion take when sharing their thoughts on the matter. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion- for example, the folks who wrote Howling Wilderness- doesn't mean that they are wrong and you are right. Some people prefer a more chaotic CONUS in their T2KU. That's cool too.

I think this point could be applied to pretty much any and all issues of contention here. It's not so much what people say, it's how it's said.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think the issue for some here is the tone that some who share your opinion take when sharing their thoughts on the matter.

Bad tone has come from both sides of this argument. I felt that needed to be said.

As to the rest of your post I agree completely.

In truth "Twilight" has two meanings

The end of darkness immediately before the dawn.

OR

The last light before things go completely black.

Either view for a T2k world is IMO valid. I have interest in both viewpoints and feel both should be nurtured here.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Well to be fair, Australia does "win" and not just in a small way. Keeping in mind that T2k was developed from "The Great Game"** and is part of the history of the 2300AD universe, Australia is a significant power in that game. So yeah, after the Twilight War, Australia does have a win and takes New Zealand (and most of Oceania) along for the ride.

From 2300AD Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook

Following the nuclear exchanges of late 1997, Australia all but ceased to exist as a nation. Thirty percent of the population perished in the first strike, which also accounted for the destruction of Australia's industrial base and oil refining capacity. With its government left powerless and its economy destroyed, Australia slipped into chaos. For the next 40 years, the only cohesive force on the entire Australian continent was the Australian military. Australian troops established cantonments in New South Wales, Victoria, and the cities of Darwin in the north and Fremantle on Australia's west coast. These forces regulated food production and distribution inside their cantonments but abandoned the regions outside. The year 2183 marked the independence of Tasmania and Queensland from Australia.

It seems Australia didn't do that well after all.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From what I said earlier,
Keeping in mind that T2k was developed from "The Great Game" and is part of the history of the 2300AD universe, Australia is a significant power in that game. So yeah, after the Twilight War, Australia does have a win and takes New Zealand (and most of Oceania) along for the ride.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by RN7

It seems Australia didn't do that well after all.

Erm, it might seem that way looking at just the sections of the history that you provided, but a more extensive reading of the Australia section of the Earth/Cyberpunk Sourcebook suggests completely the opposite.

For starters, by 2040 Australia was well on the road to recovery. Then when the Melbourne Accords were signed (putting Australia front and center in probably the most important treaty negotiations in the Earth's history), the UK's refusal to sign paved the way for the very close and incredibly mutually beneficial alliance that Australia shared with the USA thereafter.

An entire arm of human interstellar colonisation was developed by the US-Australia alliance from the late 2160s. Jointly with the US, Australia is effectively a second-tier super-power by 2300.

The independence of Tasmania and a small proportion of Queensland are pretty hilarious. If you have a look at the map of Australia in the Earth/Cyberpunk Sourcebook, the nation of Queensland is just Cape York Peninsula from Cairns northward. How they manage to be a viable nation-state before they annexed Papua New Guinea from the 2260s onwards is beyond me, but that's what canon says so so be it.

Tasmania isn't even viable as a state in real life without massive economic assistance from the rest of Australia, so them becoming an independent nation in T2300 is hilarious. I guess it's some kind of neo-hippy eco-haven or something. Most Australians wouldn't give two stuffs if Tasmania declared independence (no doubt Legbreaker will have something to say about that ).

In any case, Oceania in 2300 seems to have something like an EU arrangement going on, so Australia, New Zealand, "Papua", "Tasmania" and the South Pacific island states would be closely economically interconnected and interdependent anyway. To do otherwise would be pretty stupid for the non-Australian nations of Oceania.

So all in all, I'd say that "It seems Australia didn't do that well after all" is a reasonable statement regarding Australia during and immediately after the Twilight War, but is completely refutable in the longer term.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Targan

Erm, it might seem that way looking at just the sections of the history that you provided, but a more extensive reading of the Australia section of the Earth/Cyberpunk Sourcebook suggests completely the opposite.

For starters, by 2040 Australia was well on the road to recovery. Then when the Melbourne Accords were signed (putting Australia front and center in probably the most important treaty negotiations in the Earth's history), the UK's refusal to sign paved the way for the very close and incredibly mutually beneficial alliance that Australia shared with the USA thereafter.

An entire arm of human interstellar colonisation was developed by the US-Australia alliance from the late 2160s. Jointly with the US, Australia is effectively a second-tier super-power by 2300.

The independence of Tasmania and a small proportion of Queensland are pretty hilarious. If you have a look at the map of Australia in the Earth/Cyberpunk Sourcebook, the nation of Queensland is just Cape York Peninsula from Cairns northward. How they manage to be a viable nation-state before they annexed Papua New Guinea from the 2260s onwards is beyond me, but that's what canon says so so be it.

Tasmania isn't even viable as a state in real life without massive economic assistance from the rest of Australia, so them becoming an independent nation in T2300 is hilarious. I guess it's some kind of neo-hippy eco-haven or something. Most Australians wouldn't give two stuffs if Tasmania declared independence (no doubt Legbreaker will have something to say about that ).

In any case, Oceania in 2300 seems to have something like an EU arrangement going on, so Australia, New Zealand, "Papua", "Tasmania" and the South Pacific island states would be closely economically interconnected and interdependent anyway. To do otherwise would be pretty stupid for the non-Australian nations of Oceania.

So all in all, I'd say that "It seems Australia didn't do that well after all" is a reasonable statement regarding Australia during and immediately after the Twilight War, but is completely refutable in the longer term.

But 40 years as a Howling Wilderness?!?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by RN7

But 40 years as a Howling Wilderness?!?

Fair point. I guess if the population of the US was reduced by 52% by July of 2000, and Australia lost 30% of its population in the initial nuclear strikes alone, Australia's population was probably reduced by the same percentage if not more than the US by July 2000. And with a tiny initial population compared to the US, it would've been really hard to maintain an industrialised civilisation in the early part of the new millennium. Still, 40 years to drag ourselves back to being an industrial nation-state is pretty impressive, considering Australia was at war with a couple of hundred million Indonesians during most of that time. They breed 'em tough down here