Morrow Aviation Assets

[stormlion1]

Big question would be how heavy is the Fusion Reactor and what kind of airframe would be needed to lift one. What needs to come out to fit it. A Grumman Goose may be too small without taking up critical cabin space. Fuel for the engines for most aircraft is stored in the wings. Would the Reactor fit in the wings? Without overbalancing? For some assets, fusion reactors would be less than ideal and just keeping a stock of Avgas on hand would be a better idea.

[Gamer]

The project does not need anything for air superiority, the Morrow group is about reconstruction not making warlords.
They don't have a need for F-5s nor the ability to maintain F-5s, they like every other jet aircraft are maintenance pigs, not to mention parts and fuel are coming from where? they would become hanger queens within a month at most IF they even had fuel to begin with.

Light coin aircraft are what the Morrow group would have at most, I'm going with either Airtractors AT-802U http://www.802u.com/
or Iomax's Archangel https://www.iomax.net/archangel/
both raise absolutely no suspicion as they are made from agriculture aircraft, have very low maintenance requirements and flight endurance way beyond any helicopter or jet.

As for ww2 era aircraft made from modern materials I would go with Something similar that happened not too long ago.
There was a company called FlugWerk GmBH it was a company that had started building the FW-190 from modern materials, who recently sold off it's production capabilities to somebody else.

There is also Titan aircraft and it's T-51D http://www.titanaircraft.com/t-51d.php

There is also the replica spitfires for those of you who prefer them:
http://www.campbellaeroclassics.com/...tybrochure.pdf

There are the people of War aircraft replicas international http://www.waraircraftreplicas.com/
These aircraft are at 1/2 to 3/4 scale but people are buying and flying these things and it's not like you couldn't scale them up to full size.
There are even replica sopwith camels and the like along with F-86 replicas running around now.

So it is far from the realm of impossibility for the PBY, Goose or any of your favorite ww2 era aircraft to be rebuilt for MP (or anyone elses) use

Lighter than air aircraft have one weakness with helium and that is helium itself, unless you make it so that MP made a few of their fusion plants to create helium that gas is going to be as super finite as avgas would be for jets -assuming you even had any avgas.

You can't just keep avgas or any refined gas and call it good, it only keeps for a few years then is unuseable for it's intent and after 150 years there is not going to be ANY useable refined gas from before the war.
You will have to have MP design an alcohol or some easy to refine fuel to use in it's motor's if they aren't going to be fusion powered.

[stormlion1]

The US has natural Gas reserves of Helium, the project could buy up a field and then sit on it giving them a five year after supply of the stuff. They could also go and do the stupid thing and use Hydrogen, which is riskier but is something they can make with the right equipment.

[Gamer]

Storm, there is a law for the reserve to be sold off by 2015.
MP could buy up a lot but then are stuck with having to find a place to store it so it doesn't leak and yet still able to access it.
There are only so many caverns that you can store it in and able to get to.

It is still a finite resource unless you make it so that the fusion reactors can make more of it and you have a place to store that, what is the point of it in the first place?
The balloons leech the stuff like crazy, it's not like you can just get some and keep it forever in the balloon due to helium permutation you have to regularly fill the balloons or it's gone forever.

The military itself has been having problems logistically for some time with it's fleet.

Logistics is going to be everything, if it isn't practical it isn't worth it.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Gamer

The project does not need anything for air superiority, the Morrow group is about reconstruction not making warlords.
They don't have a need for F-5s nor the ability to maintain F-5s, they like every other jet aircraft are maintenance pigs, not to mention parts and fuel are coming from where? they would become hanger queens within a month at most IF they even had fuel to begin with.

Light coin aircraft are what the Morrow group would have at most, I'm going with either Airtractors AT-802U http://www.802u.com/
or Iomax's Archangel https://www.iomax.net/archangel/
both raise absolutely no suspicion as they are made from agriculture aircraft, have very low maintenance requirements and flight endurance way beyond any helicopter or jet.

I disagree.

I am sure that the Project would purchase and use light COIN aircraft.

COIN aircraft do not operate unless your side owns air superiority. Look at A-1 Skyraiders
operating in the COIN and air support mission in Viet Nam. These were regularly in danger from Mig -17s and Mig-19s operated by the North.

The Project doesn't need a large fleet. Flights of four (2x2) operating from Prime and the largest regional bases is enough. These to cover the air over those large important assets and protect them from Soviet bombers, rogue military forces, and act in the air to ground mission on extreme cases.

Air Superiority is the key to freedom of movement on the ground.

As for fuel......... Turbines eat anything that can be sprayed as a mist ahead of the compressor. AvGas is just kerosene. Kerosene is 1880s technology and not something that is difficult to refine.

This assumes that Project F-5s need fuel....... An electric motor that turns a turbine could conceivably draw in and compress air until the air itself ignited and made thrust.

[Gamer]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I disagree.

I am sure that the Project would purchase and use light COIN aircraft.

COIN aircraft do not operate unless your side owns air superiority. Look at A-1 Skyraiders
operating in the COIN and air support mission in Viet Nam. These were regularly in danger from Mig -17s and Mig-19s operated by the North.

The Project doesn't need a large fleet. Flights of four (2x2) operating from Prime and the largest regional bases is enough. These to cover the air over those large important assets and protect them from Soviet bombers, rogue military forces, and act in the air to ground mission on extreme cases.

Air Superiority is the key to freedom of movement on the ground.

As for fuel......... Turbines eat anything that can be sprayed as a mist ahead of the compressor. AvGas is just kerosene. Kerosene is 1880s technology and not something that is difficult to refine.

This assumes that Project F-5s need fuel....... An electric motor that turns a turbine could conceivably draw in and compress air until the air itself ignited and made thrust.

running on compressed air alone? you can't really be serious.
you might as well forget any jet you're fawning over, it isn't gong to happen.

You can disagree all you want and do it in your own game, but the fact is, MP has no need for combat jets for air superiority.
If it was afraid of aircraft THAT much why is there not any serious anti-aircraft weaponry anywhere in the books?
Something far easier to obtain, maintain, and operate than ANY jet aircraft.
Stinger systems are not a serious system, a nice tactical battlefield defense system yes.

COIN aircraft do not operate unless your side owns air superiority.

Yes they do, and will continue to do so, COIN has changed dramatically since Vietnam as has air to air capabilities.
COIN aircraft have proven they are a bitch to detect much less hit with look down shoot down capabilities.
Helos are easy due to that lovely radar reflection from the rotors and I've been sent in on helo's minus escort into combat zones before any air superiority was achieved or desired several times in my career.
Modern coin capabilities fly way lower than any air superiority jet pilot even dreams of going (married one).

Air Superiority is the key to freedom of movement on the ground.

The Morrow Project is NOT and NEVER has been set up you own local warlord.
The morrow porject does not field an army.
It fields small teams spread out through the united states, NOT in Iraq or afghanistan, Russia, Crimea, Germany or Poland.
WHO after WW3 and all those nukes is going to have any desire to continue the war?
EMP alone is going to make and end to long range aircraft going anywhere.
Hardened systems only protects against a few nukes going off not hundreds -to thousands -yes the us military does teach that fact-
Just HOW are the soviets getting those aircraft to the states to the degree that requires the Morrow project to demand air superiority aircraft be stored away?
You expect them to sacrifice Ilyushin tankers just to bomb a nuked US?
They will need all the aircraft for themselves after all they are surrounded by far more people against them than we are.
The collapse of governments will bring a cease to hostilities to the degree you insist is going to happen.
Nobody with such aircraft left is going to waste them on a fools errand on sending them all the way over to bomb an already nuked to collapse United States, nothing more is to be gained.
You seem to be missing the theme of the game yourself.

Avgas is not kerosene, jet A, or JP-8.
Unless you take every and all precautions on storing it (and it's still not a guarantee) you will have some interesting things to deal with in the fuel to preserve your aircraft.

[kato13]

Gamer,

While I think you are right about the canon project probably not needing anything approaching a high-powered jet, I still find ArmySgt's posts interesting and potentially useful.

I have planned games using the Phoenix Project rules (A Morrow rules clone) and in those games there is military involvement in the project. That upgrades equipment at every level.

Everyone's project is different. For example, I want ALL my project's teams to bristle with firepower (marauders will look at them like porcupines). "No way im going to touch that". This is often more for show than for combat, but it allows my regional teams enough freedom to reach their local rally points. So in my project plan, once a community support team reached the rally point more than half of the heaviest equipment would have been put in an armory, and they would move into areas, that have been swept by mars and recon teams, with a much less intimidating appearance.

The personality of my gaming group is one that very much avoids combat, but I think they want a project to be prepared for almost anything (if it had actually worked). I also want the project planners to have a desire to have a technical edge over most 5 year post threats.

It is possible some warlord has the Commemorative Air Force(formerly Confederate Air force) under his control. So to counter that I give my project 4-8 A-37s that can be fitted with AAMs. F-5s are a little heavy for my taste, but if any threat is going to have prop planes it is nice to have a jet trump card.

Maybe the surviving US Military, who I believe the project is supposed to help if they get the chance, could really use 4 jets which have been sheltered from EMP and have a full logistical chain.

Just food for thought.

[stormlion1]

While I don't see the Project needing Fighter Aircraft I can see them stocking one or four away for a rainy day. But without dedicated Pilots and a limited amount of Avgas and munitions. There job is to aid in rebuilding not arm the USAF or combat Russian Forces. At most they would be dedicated to aiding Mars Teams if they were in distress but that is about it. The resources would be better spent on cargo aircraft and small aircraft for survey work. The major issue is that while a Fighter plane might survive five years unattended (Will they be in sealed bunkers or in Bolt Holes with inert gas? That's a lot of inert gas.) One hundred and fifty years after the fact there going to be so much junk and any landing fields will be either broken up asphalt or grass covered fields. Just clearing a usable landing strip unless its a desert environment will be a major undertaking. So if there are any fighter planes they would be limited to desert regions because there just won't be enough usable landing strips to even use them without a huge landscaping project needing to be done.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

The major issue is that while a Fighter plane might survive five years unattended (Will they be in sealed bunkers or in Bolt Holes with inert gas? That's a lot of inert gas.)

A modified A-10 flew on cellulose processed into alcohol a few years ago.
This could be another Project development. If the agricultural teams do their job, there should be MUCH surpluss cellulose.

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Ener...-Jet-Fuel.html

Originally Posted by stormlion1

One hundred and fifty years after the fact there going to be so much junk and any landing fields will be either broken up asphalt or grass covered fields.

When I plan my project I try not to think about the 150 year mistake, unless it is lethal to the team. With teams waking up randomly a lot of equipment ends up being only borderline useful as it was expected to synergize with other teams.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by kato13

Gamer,

It is possible some warlord has the Commemorative Air Force(formerly Confederate Air force) under his control. So to counter that I give my project 4-8 A-37s that can be fitted with AAMs. F-5s are a little heavy for my taste, but if any threat is going to have prop planes it is nice to have a jet trump card.

Actually I like the idea of the State of Texas controlling the CAF resources better, along with whatever was left of the US military air assets in Texas.

They have some interesting plans that can fly long ranges to say the KFS.

The P-47N-5RE they have is an extreme long range bomber escort (3200 km range). It is more than capable of flying to the KFS on photo recon and back, from the center of Texas to the center of Kentucky is only 1566 Km.

Interesting addition to any KFS campaign out there.

[nuke11]

I'm for the MP having air assets, but not that much of it.

Hiding stuff around the country at the smaller airfields is easy to do, currently working on an MP Airbase for release later, but there are dozens and dozens of small air fields around the country that MPI can purchase and use to store air assets.

I'm leaning myself to 1 / 2 engine prop and small helicopters . Since we have the CH-47 and C-130 from Prime Base, we have to include them as well, but in limited numbers and very limited locations.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by nuke11

Actually I like the idea of the State of Texas controlling the CAF resources better, along with whatever was left of the US military air assets in Texas.

They have some interesting plans that can fly long ranges to say the KFS.

The P-47N-5RE they have is an extreme long range bomber escort (3200 km range). It is more than capable of flying to the KFS on photo recon and back, from the center of Texas to the center of Kentucky is only 1566 Km.

Interesting addition to any KFS campaign out there.

Read PF-06 Operation Lone Star for the state of U.S. forces in and around Ft. Hood, Texas. Incursion by Cuban/Central American Soviet allies, and the state of oil production......

Own and get a Morrow Project communications satellite too while you are at it as an added bonus!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

, I still find ArmySgt's posts interesting and potentially useful.

[ArmySGT.]

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on?

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Gamer

running on compressed air alone? you can't really be serious.
you might as well forget any jet you're fawning over, it isn't gong to happen.

Quite serious. Compression makes combustion.

Originally Posted by Gamer

You can disagree all you want and do it in your own game, but the fact is, MP has no need for combat jets for air superiority.
If it was afraid of aircraft THAT much why is there not any serious anti-aircraft weaponry anywhere in the books?
Something far easier to obtain, maintain, and operate than ANY jet aircraft.
Stinger systems are not a serious system, a nice tactical battlefield defense system yes.

Chapparal (Sidewinder AA missile) starts on pages 18-19 in the 3rd edition. Found on the MARS One, Science One, and Prime Base. A large Medium category Air Defense missile system.

Originally Posted by Gamer

Yes they do, and will continue to do so, COIN has changed dramatically since Vietnam as has air to air capabilities.
COIN aircraft have proven they are a bitch to detect much less hit with look down shoot down capabilities.
Helos are easy due to that lovely radar reflection from the rotors and I've been sent in on helo's minus escort into combat zones before any air superiority was achieved or desired several times in my career.
Modern coin capabilities fly way lower than any air superiority jet pilot even dreams of going (married one).

COIN aircraft rely on Air Superiority fighters to keep the skies clear. Iraq or Afghanistan isn’t a good example as the Iraqi air force wasn’t very credible to start with and the Mujahideen didn’t have pilots. (helos, yes; fighters, no)

COIN aircraft are Air to Ground support aircraft. Calling them COIN aircraft is just obscuring they title to support the hearts and minds campaign. Much like a dropping a bomb on a bridge became “servicing a target”.

Originally Posted by Gamer

The Morrow Project is NOT and NEVER has been set up you own local warlord.
The morrow porject does not field an army.
It fields small teams spread out through the united states, NOT in Iraq or afghanistan, Russia, Crimea, Germany or Poland.

Yet, there is the MARS One vehicle. Which has no rescue equipment other than a med unit.

Originally Posted by Gamer

WHO after WW3 and all those nukes is going to have any desire to continue the war?

Apparently both sides…….. In the “Fringeworthy: Complete” CD collection from Tri Tac Games (owned by Richard Tucholka) is some supporting material for the Morrow Project. The War begins 19 November, 1989 and lasts several months. Denver is the last place known nuked and that is for atleast the third time.

Originally Posted by Gamer

EMP alone is going to make and end to long range aircraft going anywhere.
Hardened systems only protects against a few nukes going off not hundreds -to thousands -yes the us military does teach that fact-

I am a graduate of the NBC NCO course 1999. EMP has been highly overrated.

Originally Posted by Gamer

Just HOW are the soviets getting those aircraft to the states to the degree that requires the Morrow project to demand air superiority aircraft be stored away?

Bear bomber have exceptional range for their class, some models with ranges greater than 9,000 miles. Enough to strike targets in the upper continental US and return without refueling with an over the Pole course.

Originally Posted by Gamer

You expect them to sacrifice Ilyushin tankers just to bomb a nuked US?

Nope, the tankers will be in their race track orbits over the Soviet arctic shoreline as the NATO ones will be over the Canadian shoreline with interceptor aircraft nearby to protect them.

Originally Posted by Gamer

They will need all the aircraft for themselves after all they are surrounded by far more people against them than we are.

Possibly, depends upon the State of things. If it is 1989…….. Not so much. China is their friends, South Korea and Japan can’t do much beyond their territorial waters. Europe is going to catch some nukes, then Russian will dominate their air space and sea lanes. Europe will fall.

Originally Posted by Gamer

The collapse of governments will bring a cease to hostilities to the degree you insist is going to happen.

Governments will but the military in each is going to carry on as long as they can. Russia has the “Dead Hand” system for example.

Originally Posted by Gamer

Nobody with such aircraft left is going to waste them on a fools errand on sending them all the way over to bomb an already nuked to collapse United States, nothing more is to be gained.

Retaining the initiative, denying the enemy maneuver, and disrupting war or domestic production are typical reasons for strategic bombing missions.

Originally Posted by Gamer

You seem to be missing the theme of the game yourself.

No, I plan for what the Project was supposed to be if it had functioned properly. Then, I have fun taking away all the toys, giving the Team something that almost could be useful, or having a reasonable explanation for how the “Cavalry” is what it is.

Originally Posted by Gamer

Avgas is not kerosene, jet A, or JP-8.
Unless you take every and all precautions on storing it (and it's still not a guarantee) you will have some interesting things to deal with in the fuel to preserve your aircraft.

Production of aviation fuel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_fuel
The production of aviation fuel falls into two categories: fuel suitable for turbine engines and fuel suitable for internal combustion engines. There are international specifications for each.
Jet fuel is used in both turboprop and jet aircraft, and must maintain a low viscosity at low temperature, meet definite limits in terms of density and calorific value, burn cleanly, and remain chemically stable when heated to high temperature.[3]

Aviation gasoline, often referred to as "avgas", is a highly refined form of gasoline for aircraft, with an emphasis on purity, anti-knock characteristics and minimization of spark plug fouling. Avgas must meet performance guidelines for both the rich mixture condition required for take-off power settings and the leaner mixtures used during cruise to reduce fuel consumption.
Avgas is sold in much lower volume than jet fuel, but to many more individual aircraft operators; whereas jet fuel is sold in high volume to large aircraft operators, such as airlines and military.[4]
Avgas (aviation gasoline) is used in spark-ignited internal-combustion engines in aircraft. Its formulation is distinct from mogas (motor gasoline) used in cars. Avgas is formulated for stability, safety, and predictable performance under a wide range of environments, and is typically used in aircraft that use reciprocating or Wankel engines.
Jet fuel is a clear to straw-colored fuel, based on either an unleaded kerosene (Jet A-1), or a naphtha-kerosene blend (Jet B). It is similar to diesel fuel, and can be used in either compression ignition engines or turbine engines.
Jet-A powers modern commercial airliners and is a mix of pure kerosene and anti-freeze and burns at temperatures at or above 49 degrees Celsius (120 degrees Fahrenheit). Kerosene-based fuel has a much higher flash point than gasoline-based fuel, meaning that it requires significantly higher temperature to ignite. It is a high-quality fuel; if it fails the purity and other quality tests for use on jet aircraft, it is sold to other ground-based users with less demanding requirements, like railroad engines.[5]

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Big question would be how heavy is the Fusion Reactor and what kind of airframe would be needed to lift one. What needs to come out to fit it. A Grumman Goose may be too small without taking up critical cabin space. Fuel for the engines for most aircraft is stored in the wings. Would the Reactor fit in the wings? Without overbalancing? For some assets, fusion reactors would be less than ideal and just keeping a stock of Avgas on hand would be a better idea.

Depends...... The one sized for a V-150 would fit in the current nacelles with space left over for the high torque electric motor.

[Gamer]

That is going to highly depend on the power output of that reactor, but
I highly doubt you'll need reactors in each nacelle.
The size and weight of the electric motor will help offset the weight of reactor if that is an issue.
The biggest boon you'll get out of it is the plane will be deathly quiet, so quiet you won't even hear it during taxiing much less in the air
Aerial recon is going to be very easy with the only way people finding out your around is they happen to spot you, but not ever seeing such things before they may not understand what they see.

The Green 172 -Cessna 172 with electric motor- has been around for a few years.
The motor life is estimated at 30,000 hours and has only 2 moving parts.
That would be an unholy massive advantage to the MP.
There are many types of ultra-lites running on electric motors for those that don't want full sized aircraft.

The thing that people might have an issue with is if you have a reactor powered aircraft, especially with autonav your range will be crew dependent only.

[dragoon500ly]

We have Autogyros, but only in TM1-1, no module uses them. so assign a half dozen or so to the regional bases for local air reconnaissance.

We have OH-6/CH-47 helos and C-130s only at Prime Base....an argument could be made that Prime Two would have the same air group so we are looking at 12 OH-6s, 4 CH-47s and 4 C-130s for the entire Project.

The only other planes that I would even consider would be a CV-2 Caribou for STOL and light cargo/passenger use, maybe one per Regional Command Base. Perhaps a U-1 Otter to assist the Caribou for team support, maybe 2 per RCB. The only other aircraft I would consider is a OV-10 Bronco, not only is it an armed COIN aircraft, it also has limited cargo/passenger capability as well as STOL capability.

SOoooo

for a Project we might have 60 Autogyros, 12 OH6s, 4 CH-47s, 4 C-130s, 10 Caribou, 20 Otters and 10 Broncos

Thoughts?

[stormlion1]

What about resupply bases or regional bases? Surely they would have some way of moving equipment/personnel if they had to. They wouldn't make Teams cross several hundred miles just to replace personnel or damaged gear. It would make more sense to have the capability to resupply them from a distance. I personally would use old Huey Helicopters for it. They have proven to be up to the task.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

We have Autogyros, but only in TM1-1, no module uses them. so assign a half dozen or so to the regional bases for local air reconnaissance.

We have OH-6/CH-47 helos and C-130s only at Prime Base....an argument could be made that Prime Two would have the same air group so we are looking at 12 OH-6s, 4 CH-47s and 4 C-130s for the entire Project.

The only other planes that I would even consider would be a CV-2 Caribou for STOL and light cargo/passenger use, maybe one per Regional Command Base. Perhaps a U-1 Otter to assist the Caribou for team support, maybe 2 per RCB. The only other aircraft I would consider is a OV-10 Bronco, not only is it an armed COIN aircraft, it also has limited cargo/passenger capability as well as STOL capability.

SOoooo

for a Project we might have 60 Autogyros, 12 OH6s, 4 CH-47s, 4 C-130s, 10 Caribou, 20 Otters and 10 Broncos

Thoughts?

Technically, the Science One in module (censored) has one broken down. You just need to capture it back from the (censored) force before the send it back to (censored). Oh and a HAAM suit too.

I am going with Morrow Project intended to use a host of far less rugged but immediately available aircraft in the form of civil aircraft. Such as Boeing 707s or 747s in air freight configuration. The ones operating outside the U.S. or parked in a convenient desert and listed as non-flightworthy kept far and away from primary and secondary targets.

These would have been intended for use right away with crews not in cryosleep at all.

Such as a 747 reconfigured for mid air refueling (air force model) maybe acquired through a foreign power (we'll buy you two if you buy this one off the books for us).

A cargo frame can be reconfigured internally for other missions like mid air refueling, passengers, ELINT, airborne command post, etc.

Then there is a large range of turbo prop and business class civilian jets that could all be spread out throughout the dozens of corporations that fall under Morrow Industries.

Hidden in plain sight. Now 150+ the crews died, and the craft are junk. Though stock piles of parts, and the maintenance equipment may still be waiting in a supply bunker. There might even be pilots in the Frozen Watch.

[Capt Gideon]

With the lack of well maintained air fields it is most likely the MP would stick to aircraft with ruff field capability if not VTOL capability. The AV-8B Plus could carry out both the Air-to-Air as well as the Air-to-Surface missions, making use of LGB, Maverick, 2.75 inch rocket along with a wide variety of free fall bombs, with AMRAAM and Sidewinder capable with a 25mm Gatling Gun. The other is the V-22 Osprey, it is the replacement for the older CH-46, being faster and having a heavier lift capability. Being fusion powered they would have greater range and would be able to carry out any missions that the project might require. The one craft not mentioned are RPVs. A fusion powered Global Hawk that could fly high and carry out continental recon for 18 month periods before requiring a fusion pack change out would be a great asset. A modified version of the Global Hawk could be used as a communications relay platform if satellite communications aren't available. Teams, especially Recon, should have small aerial RPV for their use and heavier armed versions Like the MQ-9 Reaper (Predator-B) with 4 Hellfire II missiles and 2 GBU-12 Paveway II 500lbs bombs. Even the MQ-1 Predator can carry 2 Hellfire II missiles. Fusion powered RPV with intelligent autopilots would make great force multipliers and could carry out most of the air strike missions that the project would most likely ever need. Want something bigger, pick up a couple X-47B Stealth Attack Drones with 2000 kg (4500lbs) payload, enough for a pair of GBU-16 Paveway II Mk83 1000 lbs laser guided bombs or a pair of B61 (340 Kt) nukes. Wouldn't Damocles love some RPVs to play with?

[stormlion1]

Look to the aircraft used by Bush Pilots for small aircraft that could be stored in a Bolt Hole. Many are small, can be reconfigured for landing on water, airfield, or even snow and require the one thing the Project needs. The need a single pilot and are easily acquired and most importantly won't be missed! Not really all that good for cargo but for small scale troop transport or scouting they would do the job quite well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_plane

[welsh]

This topic reminds me of that old mercenary flick, the Wild Geese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Geese in which a group of mercenaries try to rescue an African politician and get betrayed by their corporate sponsors. Air assets factor in three different times, and it works fairly well for an adventure story.

(1) the tech of the company?
Initially the mercenaries parachute in to conduct their mission. The plane later lands to pick them up, turns around and flies off, leaving the mercenaries stranded. The airplane is a military type cargo plane that can land on a rough airfield, designed for developing countries, and a rear ramp that allows for significant cargo haulage. This strikes me as a practical choice for Morrow. The plane is also a prop aircraft, thus reducing the need for complex jet engine repair, it strikes me as a rough plane capable of simple repairs, dependent on generally available fuel sources. One could arm this aircraft with a mini gun or other weapons, turning into something like an AC-130.

(2) Coercive capacity-
The second time is when the mercenaries get napalmed on a bridge, splitting the group up, wiping out a bunch of the small team, and causing lots of problems. The plane a duel use aircraft armed with machine guns and bombing capacity, I recall duel prop and something you'd see on private airfields all over the US. The bomb strikes me as a fairly simple device. Again, this is a good model for the Morrow project and also reflects the damage that can be done to both members and adversaries by fairly non-advanced technologies that "fit" the story. It also reflects an issue of figuring air assets into the balance of the game. Even if Morrow has pretty good aircraft, there needs to be reasonable constraints on the types of planes it uses- duel use makes sense.

But it also means that adversary air groups need to utilize a tech that reflects, realistically, their capacity. In a world of ballooners seeking to escape the chaos of ground, the indigenous air assets need to have some kind of organic fuel capacity, and the aircraft have to reflect local level of tech. Even if VTOL planes make sense, the technology might be out of reach for maintenance. But this makes airfields an important element of the story as well.

(3) Indigenous capacity and infrastructure-
The third point in the film involves the mercenaries escape- where they find a local priest who is also a bush pilot, knows where there is an old Douglas Dakota cargo plane and offers to spirit them out of the country. The Dakota is an old mid 20th century relic, is in bad shape, and gets shot up and barely makes it out of the country. This too, represents to me a decent example of a reasonable local plane. If we are going to find local air assets that work, it will look something like that Dakota, essentially an airplane running on worn out toothpicks and rubber bands.

If these planes lasted 150s, not only do they have to rely on maintained parts, but also serious training of technical support and personnel to keep the planes airborne. This might mean a small group of dedicated pilots and aircrews who maintain planes either as a collective effort or in isolated groups. Remember, there isn't much population and most people are worried about subsistence- the US has become 1980s Africa in terms of development and infrastructure.

Of course, its your game so do what you want. My only advice here is to be careful with the integration of technology. "Cool" tech can cause more problems than it is worth, while desperation (through material and technical scarcity) might be the mother of innovation. As director of your story, you need to maintain the vitality of your story going forward. If your idea is a modern air war between say the Kentucky Free State and Morrow, ok. Then you have to think about the balance or if it becomes a chain of swatting KFS pilots out of the sky, the game will get boring. But if the problem is, say, acquiring a vaccine (hidden in an ancient lab in Canada) to an outbreak of a lethal form of small pox that is breaking out in an Indian community in New Mexico, than figuring out how to use scarce air assets might be fun.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by welsh

This topic reminds me of that old mercenary flick, the Wild Geese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Geese in which a group of mercenaries try to rescue an African politician and get betrayed by their corporate sponsors. Air assets factor in three different times, and it works fairly well for an adventure story.

A whole campaign can be written around a Team with a DC-3 or a V-22. As can a campaign if you wanted to make you Team nothing but, F-5 pilots. The PD puts the Team up against encounters they can beat and encounters they should run from. A PD also has plans to separate the Team from their high tech gear too.

Originally Posted by welsh

(1) the tech of the company?
Initially the mercenaries parachute in to conduct their mission. The plane later lands to pick them up, turns around and flies off, leaving the mercenaries stranded. The airplane is a military type cargo plane that can land on a rough airfield, designed for developing countries, and a rear ramp that allows for significant cargo haulage. This strikes me as a practical choice for Morrow. The plane is also a prop aircraft, thus reducing the need for complex jet engine repair, it strikes me as a rough plane capable of simple repairs, dependent on generally available fuel sources. One could arm this aircraft with a mini gun or other weapons, turning into something like an AC-130.

I agree that something that is prop driven and a short take off and landing (STOL) rated would be a logical choice. The Project though has the resources and the time to buy exactly what they need, then to store it away until it is needed. The Project doesn’t have to improvise.

Originally Posted by welsh

(2) Coercive capacity-
The second time is when the mercenaries get napalmed on a bridge, splitting the group up, wiping out a bunch of the small team, and causing lots of problems. The plane a duel use aircraft armed with machine guns and bombing capacity, I recall duel prop and something you'd see on private airfields all over the US. The bomb strikes me as a fairly simple device. Again, this is a good model for the Morrow project and also reflects the damage that can be done to both members and adversaries by fairly non-advanced technologies that "fit" the story. It also reflects an issue of figuring air assets into the balance of the game. Even if Morrow has pretty good aircraft, there needs to be reasonable constraints on the types of planes it uses- duel use makes sense.

Any Close Air Support aircraft is a reconnaissance plane with a recon pod attached, and ELINT or Jammer with the right pod attached. Any hardpoints by default make any aircraft multi mission. The F-5 already has a purpose built RF-5 version.

The project could have a few Skyraiders bought up from foreign powers or like the KFS has their own production facility capable of a low rate (1 per month). The Project could also have as a subsidiary company the manufacturers of the Super Tocano. http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com...ght_attack.asp There is a thousand niches for specialized and general aviation in a reconstruction effort in hostile airspace. The nice part about gunships like a AC-47 or AC-130 is the ability to linger over a target for a long time. The gunship can then remain on station protecting the friendlies on the ground and do a lot of damage to hostile forces. Strike craft and even close air support burn a lot of fuel and can’t stay long. These have the advantage of getting there fast versus a gunship which is comparatively much slower.

Originally Posted by welsh

But it also means that adversary air groups need to utilize a tech that reflects, realistically, their capacity. In a world of ballooners seeking to escape the chaos of ground, the indigenous air assets need to have some kind of organic fuel capacity, and the aircraft have to reflect local level of tech. Even if VTOL planes make sense, the technology might be out of reach for maintenance. But this makes airfields an important element of the story as well.

Well, the KFS is flying P-47Ds. There are other groups that are the same tech level as the Project. That doesn’t include groups that may have anti air assets that haven’t had someone to use them on. Soviets with a ZPU-4 for example.

Originally Posted by welsh

(3) Indigenous capacity and infrastructure-
The third point in the film involves the mercenaries escape- where they find a local priest who is also a bush pilot, knows where there is an old Douglas Dakota cargo plane and offers to spirit them out of the country. The Dakota is an old mid 20th century relic, is in bad shape, and gets shot up and barely makes it out of the country. This too, represents to me a decent example of a reasonable local plane. If we are going to find local air assets that work, it will look something like that Dakota, essentially an airplane running on worn out toothpicks and rubber bands.

If these planes lasted 150s, not only do they have to rely on maintained parts, but also serious training of technical support and personnel to keep the planes airborne. This might mean a small group of dedicated pilots and aircrews who maintain planes either as a collective effort or in isolated groups. Remember, there isn't much population and most people are worried about subsistence- the US has become 1980s Africa in terms of development and infrastructure.

There is more than one group in the Project encounters that could change priorities and muster the right resources to do this. The KFS. The Lonestar. Even the Warriors of Krell. Not to mention Universities, New Presidencies, and an enclave of Soviets in Mexico, Florida, or the Pacific Northwest.

Originally Posted by welsh

Of course, its your game so do what you want. My only advice here is to be careful with the integration of technology. "Cool" tech can cause more problems than it is worth, while desperation (through material and technical scarcity) might be the mother of innovation. As director of your story, you need to maintain the vitality of your story going forward. If your idea is a modern air war between say the Kentucky Free State and Morrow, ok. Then you have to think about the balance or if it becomes a chain of swatting KFS pilots out of the sky, the game will get boring. But if the problem is, say, acquiring a vaccine (hidden in an ancient lab in Canada) to an outbreak of a lethal form of small pox that is breaking out in an Indian community in New Mexico, than figuring out how to use scarce air assets might be fun.

The PD giveth, and the PD taketh away.



*crackle crackle* “ANY STATION This net! Any Station this NET! This is Mike Oscar Zero Two!
ANY STATION This is Mike OSCAR Zero Two! Immediate support! OVER! “ The voice was high pitched, the speech rushed, and the crackle of gunfire could be heard in the background. “Any Station this net! Any Station this net this is Mike Oscar Zero Two! Immediate support, OVER!” The gun fire had increased, and some sounded as though the operator was at full cyclic rate. “My God! Anyone! This is Mike Oscar Zero Two! Immediate *boom* support! OVER! “ A momentary pause as any explosion sounded off near the radio operator.

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One, I copy yours, Over.” A calm voice came up on TacNet one. “Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Oscar Zero Two, Oh my God! Can you help us? (pause) Over. “ The voice seemed dazed and unbelieving that anyone could pull him out of this situation. “Mike Oscar o Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One, Authenticate Alpha, Victor, Young man and I’ll see what I have.” The voice was abundant and calm, probably what a radio operator under determined attack needed to hear. “Diamond Zero One, this is Mike Oscar Zero Two, I authenticate Bravo, Over”… The voice was tremulous, unsure, even disbelieving” .
“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One, that’s the magic word. Squawk your Autonav, and give me a sitrep, Over.”
“Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Zero Two, transmitting now. We’re pinned! Can you help?”
“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One, I have your ident and grid. Enroute your position, with an Eeee TEeee AY, of two mikes, Over”.

“Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Zero Two, thank you! Which road you coming on? West is blocked, our hostiles are West of my position, over”.
“Mike Zero Two, this is Diamond Zero One. No roads today, Diamond FLIGHT is inbound on your position. Mark your targets. Bad guys are bananas, say again, bad guys are bananas, over”

Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Zero Two, Targets will be marked, Bananas. Did you just say, flight, Over?”

Mike Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One. Affirmative, this is Diamond Flight. Enroute to assist, EEE TEE Ayyyy to assist is 60 seconds, over”

“Diamond Two, Diamond One, on me. Diamond Three, Four, High Guard”.
“Two”
“Three”
“Four” more calm voices came over the Morrow Project Tactical Net.
“All Diamonds, Diamond One, Weapons Hot! Targets are bananas, confirm”

“Two, hot.”
“Three, hot.”
“Four, hot.”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One, gonna need a target description, over”

“Oh my god! Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Oscar Zero Two! Hostiles are two trucks with heavy machineguns supported by platoon strength dismounts. They have formed a firing line 300 meters west of mine on a ditch embankment. Our V is in the open and I have casualties, Over”.

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One, beginning my run. Find cover, Over”

“Diamond Three, One. Immediate retrans this sitch for Regional.” “Let’s get some Evac assets on the way, Over”

“Diamond One, Three. Retrans now, Over”.

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, this is Diamond One. I see you. Breaking branches your East. Targets are bananas, confirm, Over”.

“Diamond One, you’re an airplane? We have airplanes? Oh my god! Targets marked Yellow smoke, Over!”

“Confirmed, Diamond One, Engaging, Over”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, Diamond One, confirm strike, trucks down? Over”

“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two, Their burning! The trucks are burning! Thank you! Over”

“Diamand Two, start your run, over”

“Two”

“Diamond One, Diamond One! Their running!, the hostiles are running! Over!”

“One, Two, Clear”

“Two, One, Affirm”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, this is Diamond One. We’ll be making a second run, South to North. Remark targets as necessary.”

“Diamond One, Three”
“Three, One”
“One, Three. Regional says remain on station. Angel Four is inbound for EEEE Vack. Two Zero mikes at best speed, over”
“Three, One, copy, remain on high guard, over”
“Three”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, this is Diamond One, How are things down there now? Over”

“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two! Oh god, thanks, thanks! Most of them ran. Still taking some fire from the embankment maybe five to ten, can’t tell. Over”

“Three, One, got that?”
“One, Three, Affirm”
“Diamond One, beginning my run.”
“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two, I see you! Their running! Running West!”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, Diamond One. Let’s see if they can run faster than that.”

“Two, One. Abort your run. Target neutralized”

“One, Two, copy, Abort Run, Over”
“Two, One copies”

“Diamond One, This is Mike Oscar Zero Two! You did it! Their gone! You saved us! Over!”
“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One. Glad to help. Your EEE Vack is inbound and Diamond Flight is going to hang around until your wounded are safe and you are moving, Over”

“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two, Thank you! Oh my god, Thank you! Over.

“Diamond One, Out”

“All Diamonds, Diamond One. Climb to Angels two thousand and standby to assist Eeee Vack as necessary.”
“Two”
“Three”
“Four”