Combat Rules

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jester

Fire a ARMBURST from within a room, and it fried the two other PCs and the firing PC didn't understand why he ended up suffering damage to a lesser degree.

I wouldn't understand either, as it's one of the few recoilless weapons that can be (relatively) safely fired from an enclosed space, ejecting plastic flakes.

Unless all the descriptions I've read are wrong.

[headquarters]

Maybe the armbrust isnt the perfect example -maybe it isnt but that belongs in a technical thread.Say the backblast of an armbrust gives concussion damage -what stats ???
What about the rpg 7 ?

the 84 mm carl gustav recoilles cannon that I have fired many times sure warrant C:2 B:0 imho.

what of the m72 -shot ot too.Wouldnt want my arm in front of the bacblast-stats on that ?

I am most interested in ANYONE using this -and the flashbang effect I hadnt thought of ! Good one.Keep it coming -I guess my always well armed players should be disturbed by the question.or warned maybe.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

the 84 mm carl gustav recoilles cannon that I have fired many times sure warrant C:2 B:0 imho.

what of the m72 -shot ot too.Wouldnt want my arm in front of the bacblast-stats on that ?

I can't remember the back blast danger ara on either of these two weapons off the top of my head, but...

From firing the "84" on the range, it was noted the corregations in the sand quite some distance away were changing from the noise alone!. This weapon is also absolutely spectacular when fired at night. The ball of flame issuing from the rear, especially when firing ILLUM rounds almost vertically is something to be seen - bit on the hot side around the legs too....

While at Canungra (one of Australia's two jungle warfare training facilities - the other being Tully and devoted to section (squad) skills), we were taught that the M72 in close terrain was next to useless due to insufficent range to arm the projectile. We were advised that turning it around and using the backblast could be quite effective up to a couple of dozen metres. Note this advice comes from combat veterans most who served in Vietnam and a few from as far back as Korea. The staff are amongst the toughest men I know, and would probably put most SF soliders to shame! (One officer was still going with three broken ribs and doing better than 90% of us fit and healthy types.)

[jester]

I got scortched once when selected to fire a LAW rocket, needless to say my trouser leg was chared after the firing. And the section leader of the 51s a freind of mine made note of that.

As for the armburst.

Yes it sends chips out the back that all cool and well, but it doesn't change physics. A round is launched downrange via combustion of some form of rocket right? Where does the heat, gas and flash and fire go in an enclosed space? I have never fired one, never seen one fire, but I do not buy the idea that plastic chips can eliminate all of that, reduce I can beleive but eliminate no. I mean burning gas is burning gas righ?

I have heard that many of the earlier men who used rockets would have to hold their breath because of the fumes from the propellant.

My senior DI a Gunny used to man one of those multi barreled recoiless rocket launchers and I have known a few old timerss who used them too. They said it was like sitting in the middle of an explosion when they would fire their weapon. So, that is something to also consider how much pause does a gunner have to take because the gases disapate and his eyes can focus and his hearing return and he can breathe again?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jester

As for the armburst.

Yes it sends chips out the back that all cool and well, but it doesn't change physics. A round is launched downrange via combustion of some form of rocket right? Where does the heat, gas and flash and fire go in an enclosed space? I have never fired one, never seen one fire, but I do not buy the idea that plastic chips can eliminate all of that, reduce I can beleive but eliminate no. I mean burning gas is burning gas righ?

The Panzerfaust III also uses a countermass (one souce says powdered iron, another plastic flakes) and requies only 2 meters of clear space behind it. The AT-4 CS uses salt water as a countermass.

Some other rockets use a soft-launcher, where a small charge ejects the rocket from the tube, then a few meters later the main motor in the rocket kicks in. This greatly reduces backblast.

While it would certainly be unpleasant to be behind any of these weapons when fired, I'm sure it's a low more unlpeasant to be behind a LAW or RPG-7.

[headquarters]

I know the Swedes tested the 84 with 2 gunners with no hearing protection or helmets to see what kind of combat efficiency you get without.After some 60 rounds both loader and gunner were in effect temporarily deaf,had concussions and very disorientated.

I guess C:2 for direct contact with the blast stands to reason then .(being halved for every 8 meters out as pr core rules.)

I also think I will go to C:2 for the M72 based on the Aussie story and whatever little I have seen of it myself .

I would be happy to be corrected if anyone got anything .

As for the Soviet RPG-7 series ( the older versions are quite similar but with less caliber,different sights etc etc ) -I have a feel it gives a trashing backblast -but sadly never fired one .Anyone got any on this ?
Also of course the US "RPGs" like M82 SMAW or whatever it is called in real life ,the venerable "bazooka" -please try your hands on coming up with stats for me .

Next topic in the thread for those who are done with backblast follows shortly .(Anyone can start one though).

[headquarters]

The weapon remains the same ,but the available loads for it can vary a lot .

We used to have a lot of various ammo in our forces -black ring marked armour piercing .30-06 (7,62x63), tracers with red ring marks ,regular FMJs etc etc .

Same for the .308 we used later ( 7,62x51)

I guess this is also the case for other rifles and handguns out there.

Has anyone come up with stats for

-armour piercing rounds
-hollow points
-long range handloads/factory loads

please chime in with stats in regards to damage,penetration,range and recoil .

[copeab]

I thought GURPS had some specific backblast rules, but all I could find were generic ones for recoilless weapons in GURPS Vehicles.

In GURPS, weapons with a hot gas backblast have a lethat range of (bore in mm.10) yards and do 4d6 fire damage. In T2K terms, damge would probably be 4d10. For weapons that don't use hot gases, a divisor of 50 and damage of 1f6 (or perhaps 1d10) seems more appropriate, although GURPS only addresses hot gas backblast. I'd apply the damage to the firer if he didn't have sufficient room behind him, otherwise only to anyone unlucky enough to get in the way.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

My senior DI a Gunny used to man one of those multi barreled recoiless rocket launchers and I have known a few old timerss who used them too. They said it was like sitting in the middle of an explosion when they would fire their weapon. So, that is something to also consider how much pause does a gunner have to take because the gases disapate and his eyes can focus and his hearing return and he can breathe again?

Maybe that's why they called it the Ontos (Ancient Greek for "The Thing")? A six-barreled burst from an Ontos can be a nasty experience for the enemy too -- it can take down huge reinforced concrete walls. But the biggest problem with the Ontos was 1) It was small, and couldn't carry a lot of ammo, and 2) You had to get out to reload the 106's -- something problematic under enemy fire to say the least.

BTW, did you know that you can fire a Dragon from the prone position? It's just real hard; you have to angle your legs and lower body almost 90 degrees away from the rear of the Dragon, and if you can, prop the rear end up on something. And your accuracy will be crappy. Best not to bother...

Anyway, in you look here: http://www.pmulcahy.com/misc_pages/c...r_weapons.html you will find my quick & dirty take on backblast rules. Not totally realistic, but serviceable.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by copeab

it's one of the few recoilless weapons that can be (relatively) safely fired from an enclosed space, ejecting plastic flakes.

On a similar note in the early '90s the IRA developed the PRIG (Projectile Recoiless Improvised Grenade) for use here in NI. It was essentially an improvised RPG that they used with reasonable success against the armoured land rovers that the RUC used here. They managed to largely eliminate the backblast by using a packet of digestive biscuits in a similar fashion to the counter shot flakes that the Armbrust uses. The main problem with the weapon was accuracy. Sadly on too many occasions they got lucky with them - a school friend of mine who had joined the police here lost an arm and an eye to a PRIG attack.