OT: Gun Question

[chico20854]

If you want the feel of a M-16, get a civilian AR-15. You can get them in thousands of variations (stocks, barrel length, sights, accessories, manufacturers, etc), but when you pick one up the muscle memory from your last time in will come right back, its an eerie feeling. Nothing else has the same feel.

Bad news is the expense. These days with all the Obama panic an AR-15 type rifle will cost you $1000 or more. See ar15.com for a bewildering array of info on the AR.

If you want to practice marksmanship, there are a variety of good rifles out there cheap. A basic 10/22 sells at Wal-Mart for about $200 and the ammo is a steep 3 cents a round (5.56 is now 35-40+ cents a round). Mosins can be had for under $100 and there are a lot of bolt-actions, both surplus and hunting-type, on the used gun market now as people clear out their safes due to unemployment or to stock up on guns they feel are in danger of being banned in the near future. But the ergonomics of the AR aren't there although the fundamentals of marksmanship are there and don't change with the platform.

[pmulcahy11b]

When I was in the Army, I bought an AR-15 just for that reason. When I first enlisted and got out Basic, I had marksmanship scores that were barely enough to graduate, but worked my way up to expert with the help of that rifle. These days, there are zillions of AR-15 clones out there, so there is a lot of choice; you'll be able to shop around that way and possibly find a deal. If possible, get an AR-15A2; if you can afford it, get an A3 (which has a MIL-STD-1913 rail atop the receiver instead of a carrying handle) and a Trijicon ACOG, since almost every soldier is issued on these days. Shoot with and without it; my nephew, who went to basic over last summer, says they didn't have ACOGs when they were shooting for record in Basic.

Another possibility, especially for BRM practice, is an AR-15 "Clone" that is chambered for .22 Long Rifle instead of .223/5.56mm. This will give you some of the "muscle memory" at a lesser cost, and let you practice basic marksmanship.

[kalos72]

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones"? I have never really looked into this much,

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Any sites you would recommend

Guns at this site seem cheap and plentyful.

www.pmulcahy.com/

(sorry paul, it was to hard to pass up)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

I aint got a grand for this so...the .22 option will have to work. Any sites you would recommend for the "clones"? I have never really looked into this much,

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I don't know if they sell then new anymore, but the one that immediately springs to mind is the EMF AP-74. Looks just like an AR-15 (except that the flash suppressor is different) -- the magazine well is even mocked up to look a 20-round AR-15 magazine, the sights are basically the same, and the controls and operation are in the right place. It is about a pound lighter than an AR-15, however. My platoon leader in the National Guard a million years ago had one, and it really does shoot the same as an AR-15, except for shorter range.

Pauls suggestion eems a good one -but availability is probably S/R

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

[jester]

I ask you this,

What is the purpose of your buying the rifle?

I had a girlfreind who was a Nasty Guardsgirl...oh that sounds just so wrong. She was doing the OCS thing and while waiting she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with. Ah she was so sweet and cute I didn't laugh at her to badly. Since there was little point to buying your own rubber dummy rifle for training. Especialy since they cost half as much as the real thing.

So, what is your purpose for buying a "rifle." Is it to practice and learn or relearn to shoot? Or is it to also practice the whole taking it down and reassembling it thing as well? Or is it just for the whole cool factor?

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory. But, if that is what you want to do, then go with the real thing, IF you can find one, even the generic variants which some are more than reasonable. Or do what I am doing for my Cali legal ARs, buying the lowers and then the uppers. The downside, it is impossible to find the uppers right now, as well as it bewing hard to find the fully assembled ones. Folks are buying up the rifles, their components and the ammo like it is crazy as they expect a new ban to hit with this adminsitration.

IF it is shooting and honing your skills, then Get yourself a Ruger 10/22 and master the basics with an autoloader, or even a Marlin or AR-7. Just master the basics, trigger and breath control, sighting with proper sight alignment and then work your way up to the shooting positions, and even magazine changes with the rapid or even sustained fire. A benefit to the .22 is 500 rounds is between 12 and 20 bucks, for a AR class you can't get that much for under 300.

Thats just my two centavos.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

...she asked if I knew where I could get her a dummy 16 to train with.

The only thing we ever used dummy M-16s for in the Army was for bayonet training. In Basic they made the mistake of letting us use real M-16s on the Bayonet Obstacle Course -- so many were damaged the Battalion Commander reportedly chewed out the CO of our training company. I personally shattered my left handguard, troops were coming off the course with broken stocks, broken handguards, and bent barrels; one guy even had his pistol grip give way. I shudder to think what would have happened if sometime in my career I had ever gotten into a real bayonet fight...

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by headquarters

There is a drop in stock etc that resembles the ar 15 platform for the 10/22 -cant give you much detail on it though -it makes the 10/22 m16 ish .

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.

Originally Posted by jester

I personaly doubt you can use a rifle enough in the civilian world to develope a good sense of muscle memory.

Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

There's also the Tech-Sights option, which just lets you put M16-style sights on a 10/22.


Respectfully disagree. You can practice magazine changes and failure drills in your living room just as well as you can do dry fire practice. No, it's not live range time, but it can and will build the muscle memory for all the basic weapon manipulations.

- C.

Yes you can do those things, but how many people have the time? And is it more practical to purchase a generic AR so you can do that? Or more practical to get something you can really afford and afford to shoot?

I am saying the failure drill and mag change can be learned or relearned in a shorter amount of time than to get the basics down.