Civilian rifle v sniper rifle

[kcdusk]

An ordinary (.306 bold action) civilian rifle (Dam = 4, range = 75) has the same stats as the more exotic sniper rifles like M40, M21 or SVD.

In fact, the civilian .306 could be argued to be better stats wise, as the single shot (SS) rating is less than (3) the other mentioned rifles (4 or 6). Meaning the second shot of the .306 is more accurate (less negative modifiers from memory for the second shot).

[Targan]

Are we talking about 30-06 or .308 caliber?

[Draq]

Are we taking into consideration the difference between military and civilian ammo?

[pmulcahy11b]

The problem here is the game system, which does not allow for greater differentiation between firearms and their roles.

[kcdusk]

Targan: i took the numbers from the book, which i think say .30-06.

Draq: well, no. Its T2K so maybe the ammo is even worse than civilian?!?!

Paul: i don't want your excuses! Make something up!

I just found it interesting there was no real difference. I already add a +1 to hit modifier if shooting a bolt action rifle (first shot of a round only). Though that doesn't help differentiate the weapons mentioned here.

How else could you do it?

Maybe civilian rifles won't take the knocks and tumbles as much, get damaged and perhaps have a negative to hit number (which the PC doesn't know, or needs to pass a secret weapons check first after each fire fight to pick it up)?

Maybe civilian rifles are slower to fire (increase their bulk number if using it for order of action purposes)?

[Apache6]

At the level of T2K there provably should be little difference between a 1990s deer rifle and a 1990 sniper rifle.

The USMC's M40 rifle, which was more accurate than the Army's M21 was a Remington 700 that was militarized and tuned by USMC armorers. The SVD was a notoriously poor 'sniper' rifle. They (USSR) actually used it much more like a designated marksman rifle than what we (US/NATO) would consider a sniper rifle.

The scope is a very significant portion of the weapons accuracy. Military sniper scopes are going to be far more robust then civilian deer hunting rifles.

The real difference is going to be in the skill of the user.

[Cdnwolf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Hale_M82

The Canadian army used a version of the civilian rifle until 2001.

[Milano]

Take a look at the thread I just put up. Using the program it will differentiate between an average hunting rifle and sniper rifle. It also makes differences between the action types. ie essentially the Semi Auto SVD is less accurate than the Rem 700. Both are less accurate than the M40. Given all other factors being equal.

[Badbru]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

An ordinary (.306 bold action) civilian rifle (Dam = 4, range = 75) has the same stats as the more exotic sniper rifles like M40, M21 or SVD.

In fact, the civilian .306 could be argued to be better stats wise, as the single shot (SS) rating is less than (3) the other mentioned rifles (4 or 6). Meaning the second shot of the .306 is more accurate (less negative modifiers from memory for the second shot).

Targans question re .30-06 or .308? is because you've mis-typed and put in
.306 which is no round I've heard of either. .308 is essentially the same as 7.62Nato and .30-06 has a longer case.

With respect to your claim though I think one of us is in error. It's been a while since I actually looked at the BYB but I'm pretty sure in the text it says Bolt action rifles get the notation BA in the Rof column and can fire once per combat turn. Therefore to my way of thinking it matters not if the SS recoil is 3, 4 or 6 as long as it is less than the shooters strength, because there will be no second shot from BA rifles for recoil to accumulate in one 5 second combat turn. Semi automatic rifles with the Rof code SA allow up to 5 shots fired per 5 second combat turn, so the recoil figures for weapons like the M21 or the SVD are worth considering. (only the first shot is considered aimed though) So the civilian .30-06 is superior if 1) it is physically lighter and thus easier to carry, and 2) you're playing in the continental USA where .30-06 will actually be more available than 7.62N.

Or, maybe I've been doing it all wrong.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Badbru

Targans question re .30-06 or .308? is because you've mis-typed and put in
.306 which is no round I've heard of either. .308 is essentially the same as 7.62Nato and .30-06 has a longer case.

.

OK, just picked it up, must have been the over active spell checker.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Badbru

It's been a while since I actually looked at the BYB but I'm pretty sure in the text it says Bolt action rifles get the notation BA in the Rof column and can fire once per combat turn.

...

So the civilian .30-06 is superior if 1) it is physically lighter and thus easier to carry, and 2) you're playing in the continental USA where .30-06 will actually be more available than 7.62N.

Or, maybe I've been doing it all wrong.

No, you might be right. I had been meaning to chase up the BA aspect verse semi auto (5 shots). But haven't done it myself yet either! Glad there are some advantages coming to the pure sniper rifles.

[simonmark6]

Here are several GAME reasons I would come up with for choosing the military sniper rifle over the .30-06:
1) It is BA so there is only one shot per action
2) It is 1kg heavier than the Parker Hale (as long as you have Strength 4, the 1kg extra weight you can carry is better then the one less recoil)
3) It is loaded by individual rounds so it takes longer to reload
4) The sniper rifle automatically comes with a scope that adds 10m to range. You have to buy one for the .30-06
5) If you choose the military sniper rifle as a starting weapon you get it for free
6) Apart from the Parker Hale and a few other bolt action weapons, all other military sniper rifles have larger capacities and quicker reloading
6) Some military rifles have the bipod which gives equal or better range and less recoil
7) Assuming a military group, there is better ammunition compatibility
8) In Europe, military ammo is more common, this is less obvious in USA

Granted, many of these are moot points for a supposedly one shot, one kill sniper rifle, but they are all GAME advantages.

In the game, if I was going for a dedicated sniper rifle it would have to have more of an advantage over an assault rifle than any of the sniper rifles in the book, either a bigger calibre for better kill/anti-materiel work or some sort of sound suppression.

[Brother in Arms]

I have shot a lot of civilian hunting rifles in various calibers and many of them are very accurate. But there are many variables.

as far as calibers go .30-06 is a more capable cartridge than .308/7.62x51mm for long range shooting because it has greater case capacity. ( 63mm case length vs. 51mm case length)

Bolt action rifles are usually more accurate than semi-auto firearms. A gun with a good barrel and a good scope is more than capable of hitting a man sized target at 1000 yards, but the person behind the scope may not be.


Simmonmark6 makes some excellent points

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Badbru

Targans question re .30-06 or .308? is because you've mis-typed and put in
.306 which is no round I've heard of either. .308 is essentially the same as 7.62Nato and .30-06 has a longer case.

Quick, someone invent it!

[jester]

306 Actualy was a round by Remington along with 307. Now they are pretty rare being more or less a custom load.

As for bolt over semi auto...good for a sniper rifle, but if you are doing trench or room clearing you are F'ed.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jester

As for bolt over semi auto...good for a sniper rifle, but if you are doing trench or room clearing you are F'ed.

Not if you have a Springfield M-1903 and Pedersen device!

[jester]

Originally Posted by copeab

Not if you have a Springfield M-1903 and Pedersen device!

Bah! Even though its shorter barrel than most rifles of the Great War, its still on the long side. And what were the ballistics of the 30 Pedersen look like?

[Brother in Arms]

Something like .32ACP+P its not terribly powerful round for an SMG