Eyewitness From the Cockpit: F-15/16 vs. MiG-29

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Targan

If any of our American friends here have a direct line to the Senate and Congress could you please get them to allow Australia to buy F-22s? Because the F-35 program is a complete cluster-f**k, we've already contributed a fistful of cash to its development, it's way overdue and it's left us with a yawning capability gap.

Yes, I know the F-22 and the F-35 were designed for different roles but Australia buying more Super Hornets as a stopgap measure isn't exactly an ideal situation.

K thanx bai.

For Australia there is really no option but to hope that the F-22 will be resurrected and upgraded over the next five years, because the F-35 will leave Australia with precisely the same type of aircraft as the Super Hornet.

The Super Hornet holds two distinct advantages over all current flankers. Its more stealthy and its liquid cooled APG-79 AESA radar is superior to the current Russian BARS which gives it an advantage at BVR. However in the WVR arena even the well trained RAAF pilots in Super Hornet's are at a distinct disadvantage because the Super Hornet is severely handicapped by its lower combat thrust/weight ratio and hybrid wing planform.

The Super Hornet cannot compete with any Flanker variant in terms of supersonic speed, supersonic and subsonic acceleration and climb. In terms of combat radius performance the Flanker also outperforms the Super Hornet even with the latter carrying external tanks. The Flanker in all current variants outperforms the Super Hornet in aerodynamic performance, and the near term advantage the latest Super Hornets have over legacy Flanker variants in AESA and radar signature reduction features will not last long given ongoing Russian development of supercruising Al-41F engines and better AESA' and BVR missiles. Aerodynamically and performance wise the F-35 is more of the Super Hornet, and the F-35 if its works might keep ahead of the Russian and Chinese Flanker's in the technology curve but not against an T-50 PAK-FA. The only alternative to an upgraded F-22 would be an upgraded F-15 which is aerodynamically at least a match for a Flanker with better pilots and US/NATO grade avionics. The F-15 production line in St. Louis may be shut down this year, hopefully they will extend that until we know if they are going to re-open F-22 production. Hopefully John McCain and others with sense can influence all this.

[Targan]

The whole situation sucks for us. We have 55 F/A-18As, 18 F/A-18Bs and 24 F/A-18Fs (Super Hornets). The Super Hornets were purchased when it started to become apparent how delayed the F-35s would be. Since then the situation with the F-35s has become even worse. We were supposed to buy 72 F-35s but now? I think the ADF and the Australian Government are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Thanks a lot Lockheed Martin. Usually we Australians like to be kissed before we're sodomised. No kiss for us eh?

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Targan

The whole situation sucks for us. We have 55 F/A-18As, 18 F/A-18Bs and 24 F/A-18Fs (Super Hornets). The Super Hornets were purchased when it started to become apparent how delayed the F-35s would be. Since then the situation with the F-35s has become even worse. We were supposed to buy 72 F-35s but now? I think the ADF and the Australian Government are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Thanks a lot Lockheed Martin. Usually we Australians like to be kissed before we're sodomised. No kiss for us eh?

Canada is in the same boat, and Sikorsky is screwing us on CH-148 Cyclone too so nothing like getting it twice from two big US companies

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Canada is in the same boat, and Sikorsky is screwing us on CH-148 Cyclone too so nothing like getting it twice from two big US companies

Canada is an even worse defense situation to Australia in regards to the F-35. Unlike Australia who is unlikely to face actual Russian forces near Australian territory, the Canadians directly face the Russians over the Arctic and Russian bombers would fly over Canadian territory during an attack on the US. Russian Air Force Flanker's use better radar, sensors and missiles than any other Flanker user including China, and the T-50 PAK-FA will be more stealthy than the F-35 and probably the F-22 as well as being an aerodynamically superior fighter to the F-35. Canada and a lot of other countries are really going to have to think about alternatives to the F-35 in regards to BVR air superiority, which will mean either the F-22, Eurofighter or upgraded F-15's unless they want to buy Flankers.

[RN7]

The 'success' of Lockheed-Martin's F-35 on the international arms market may have unintentionally engineered a fighter and fighter-bomber gap between most Western and Western aligned states and the Russian/Chinese bloc.

The F-35 is considerably aerodynamically inferior to and less stealthy than an F-22. The F-35 is also aerodynamically inferior to the F-15, all Sukhoi Flanker variants, most Chinese 4th and 5th generation fighters and also the Eurofighter. Additionally the F-35 is also aerodynamically inferior to the T-50 PAK-FA, and in all likely hood will be less stealthy than the T-50. Within WVR ranges the F-35 is also aerodynamically inferior to the Eurofighter, the Rafale, all GE engined F-16's and probably the Mig-29.

So far the USAF, USN, USMC, Australia, Britain, Canada, Israel, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Norway, South Korea and Turkey and probably other countries plan to replace their current fleets of F-4, F-15, F-16, F-18, Harrier and Tornado with the F-35. As a fighter its aerodynamically inferior to most of these aircraft and has no-where near the payload and range of a Tornado. So basically the US, most of NATO and key Western allies will be using an aircraft which is reliant on stealth and so-far unproven and unreliable gadgets to fend of Russian and Chinese aircraft that are superior BVR fighters, and who will have more powerful strike aircraft. The USAF will still have the F-22, its bomber fleet and the F-15E, but the other's who don't have the Eurofighter (maybe the Mitsubishi F-2 as well) will become vulnerable if not downright outclassed by Russian and Chinese BVR fighters, and this will get worse if Russian and Chinese stealth detection technology matches or surpasses the F-35's alleged attributes. This gap will continue until the late 2020's when the US 6th generation fighters such as the USAF F-X and USN F/A-XX start to come on line.

Worrying.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Somewhat OT

You know, with only a small number of corporations left to supply equipment and the fact that those corporations are huge multi-national entities with considerable power to sway governments, it seems to me that the world has reached the problems of the Cyberpunk genre of games* - except we seem to have got them about 10-20 years ahead of Cyberpunk storylines.



* As in, corporations fighting dirty to sell their product even if it means foisting off any old crap to the customer - the product is not important, the sale is paramount.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Somewhat OT

You know, with only a small number of corporations left to supply equipment and the fact that those corporations are huge multi-national entities with considerable power to sway governments, it seems to me that the world has reached the problems of the Cyberpunk genre of games* - except we seem to have got them about 10-20 years ahead of Cyberpunk storylines.



* As in, corporations fighting dirty to sell their product even if it means foisting off any old crap to the customer - the product is not important, the sale is paramount.

As in Mike Pondsmith's Cyberpunk 2020 series? Its only 5 years away and there are already many parallels.