NATO Small Arms production in late stages of Twilight War

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kato13

The soviets didn't use brass at all for their small arms rounds, correct?

Soviet 7.62×39mm cartridge originally used a bimetallic steel and copper case and in the early 60's it transitioned to a lacquered steel case

They made a ton of ammo and you had to figure by late in the war they were issuing stuff that may have been in storage for a long time - so the answer is most likely it was lacquered steel but if its old ammo it could have steel and copper

[swaghauler]

I Highly doubt that lacquered cases would ever make it onto a modern battlefield. Heat resistant lacquer would be in short supply while an old substitute (wax) would not. The Soviets have shown that painted steel cases can work very handily in modern actions. Stock AR-15's can use the Wolf brand steel cased ammo without a problem. Lacquered cases were used during WW2; but modern powder and lacquer DON'T mix. A hot wax seal around the bullet crimp would work just as well for sealing out water (rust would be a "non-issue" in the cottage industry reloading plant, they simply wouldn't care) and could be used to seal plastic shotgun shell hulls. The brass cases from fired ammo are pretty hardy and even a "green" brass case can be polished very quickly in a case tumbler. Most rounds can be reloaded between 10 and 12 times providing they weren't loaded to +P pressures (which will reduce case life). Even the harshly "dinged" cases from an H&K "enhanced blowback" roller locking action (MP5, G3, HK33/41, MG3) can usually be salvaged by running them through a 2 piece (inside and outside) resizing die. I would roll a 1d10 for 6 or less for successful resizing of crimped cases.

[Ancestor]

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Ancestor

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

It wouldn't surprise me to see all manner of "livestock" being driven along (as in a cattle drive, NOT in a truck) with the logistics tail. The US Army was forced to open a school for handling pack mules during the most recent deployments. The mules were just the best solution for certain units in Afghanistan. I'm guessing the US (and NATO) would "hire" a bunch of "Civilian Contractors" to handle such livestock in Twilight.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

It wouldn't surprise me to see all manner of "livestock" being driven along (as in a cattle drive, NOT in a truck) with the logistics tail. The US Army was forced to open a school for handling pack mules during the most recent deployments. The mules were just the best solution for certain units in Afghanistan. I'm guessing the US (and NATO) would "hire" a bunch of "Civilian Contractors" to handle such livestock in Twilight.

Military tractor trailer could pull a commandeerd live stock trailer.... Or use the stake and pallet trailer. There are also refridgerated vans and freezer vans in inventory.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Military tractor trailer could pull a commandeerd live stock trailer.... Or use the stake and pallet trailer. There are also refridgerated vans and freezer vans in inventory.

I would be concerned about the diversion of fuel from combat units for transport of livestock or refrigeration. I think it would be more "resource feasible" to hire civilians to "drive" cattle, sheep, or goats behind the combat units. These animals really don't need feed hay or grain as a food source for short 100km to 150km drives. You just let them graze on the drive. Texas Longhorns and Brahmas can and do survive completely on graze (although they both look anorexic to this former Black Angus herder). These two breeds have another advantage that most milk and beef cattle don't have today. They can birth without assistance (google "Calf Chains" for an education on this). Horses are a very different story. A horse NEEDS grain if it is to do any work for you. Horses without grain will deteriorate very quickly if used for work. This all assumes an orderly/planned movement of a military unit. If a military unit were "moving with a purpose"; I'm betting they'd just "forage" for supplies (much to the distress of the locals).

[Raellus]

I can imagine chicken coops, rabbit hutches, and small pig and goat pens festooning the top decks of military vehicles as they move from laager site to laager site (assuming combat is not expected imminently).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I would be concerned about the diversion of fuel from combat units for transport of livestock or refrigeration. I think it would be more "resource feasible" to hire civilians to "drive" cattle, sheep, or goats behind the combat units.

To slow to keep up and to vulnerable to opportunists. A desperate hungry man could shoot one cow and there is little you could do about it. A desperate and hungry village could stampede or scatter a herd and take several head for themselves.

This, also cows moving at 10 miles per day are going to be outpaced by unit movements that can be 100 miles away in a single day. That would leave them further vulnerable to bandits.

Last, cattle drives of the American Old West were either from winter to summer graze or to market. That market could be hundreds of miles away, but the cowboy expected only to be on the trail for a few months then home with a good purse.

Civilian cattle drivers in T2K might sign on indefinitely because it does mean they eat. However, can you expect them to cross borders and enter an area that might be hostile to them?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Ancestor

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

Forgetting ducks, turkeys, and geese. Each provides meat, eggs, feathers (down coats), and are higher in fats than most chicken breeds. Rabbits in hutches provide meat and furs for winter clothes. Goats provide meat, fat, milk, and hides. Goats can also two small trailers or pack loads of 20 to 40 lbs. Each also does well on natural forage and doesn't need grains though those would improve final weight. Hogs and Boars don't provide anything except waste disposal until slaughter then it lard, meat, and very tough hide for high wear leather purposes.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

[Ancestor]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

Great point! There would definitely be competition for resources! I may work that into my game. Thanks!

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Forgetting ducks, turkeys, and geese. Each provides meat, eggs, feathers (down coats), and are higher in fats than most chicken breeds.

Common pigeons produce eggs, meat, and feathers, are extremely common and henceforth available, and can be kept in fairly small compartments; and most importantly, pigeon droppings are incredibly beneficial to soil nutrients and do not require the aging times that other dungs do. I posted on these boards a fair-sized note on urban farming that addressed the benefits of pigeons regarding urban homesteading in Armies of the Night.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

The use of urea from human urine applied to chopped hay, straw, and other less-suitable fodder (corn stalks, etc) can boost the nutrient availability of the material by 20%; this could offset the diversion of grains as cattle feedstock.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I Highly doubt that lacquered cases would ever make it onto a modern battlefield. Heat resistant lacquer would be in short supply while an old substitute (wax) would not. The Soviets have shown that painted steel cases can work very handily in modern actions. Stock AR-15's can use the Wolf brand steel cased ammo without a problem. Lacquered cases were used during WW2; but modern powder and lacquer DON'T mix. A hot wax seal around the bullet crimp would work just as well for sealing out water (rust would be a "non-issue" in the cottage industry reloading plant, they simply wouldn't care) and could be used to seal plastic shotgun shell hulls. The brass cases from fired ammo are pretty hardy and even a "green" brass case can be polished very quickly in a case tumbler. Most rounds can be reloaded between 10 and 12 times providing they weren't loaded to +P pressures (which will reduce case life). Even the harshly "dinged" cases from an H&K "enhanced blowback" roller locking action (MP5, G3, HK33/41, MG3) can usually be salvaged by running them through a 2 piece (inside and outside) resizing die. I would roll a 1d10 for 6 or less for successful resizing of crimped cases.

In the 1950's the U.S. made and issued steel cased .30 carbine, .30-06 M2 and .45ACP. There are Berdan primer punches that one must turn the case until the punch meets the holes, but water and a dowel rod can do the same job. Berdan reloading primers are made and a Boxer conversion DIY video is online for inspiration.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

In the 1950's the U.S. made and issued steel cased .30 carbine, .30-06 M2 and .45ACP. There are Berdan primer punches that one must turn the case until the punch meets the holes, but water and a dowel rod can do the same job. Berdan reloading primers are made and a Boxer conversion DIY video is online for inspiration.

I have and do still reload steel cased and Berdan primed cases. What I was referring to in my post is the fact that the chemicals in modern lacquer will leech into modern "ECO-FRIENDLY" smokeless powder and "kill" said powder. The same is true for most lubrication and also any carb cleaner you might use to clean your weapon with. Using lacquer in any cottage industry reloader would contaminate the inside of the case when you resized it and cause major ignition reliability issues. That's why I said that most small operations would simply forego the lacquer and just punch out "raw" mild steel casings. They could "rattle can" paint them afterwards but I don't see anyone wasting the time to do this on cheap ammo. The better cases (salvaged brass) would be saved for "higher paying customers" or the local authority.