Mexican Army Equipment 1995

[Olefin]

keep in mind too what the 40th is protecting (and it shows the authors really didnt know the California that well)

The Soviets nukes the big refineries in the state and thus you cant get oil production out of LA or near San Francisco - but there are three smaller refineries in Kern County around Bakersfield - and those three refineries get their oil from the Kern oil fields around them - so that makes Bakersfield the last gas station in CA

so why is the 40th there? To keep the Mexicans from getting that oil - and to keep it for MilGov

that could also explain why they didnt counterattack - the 40th could have been tasked with hold on in Bakersfield no matter what and stop the Mexicans dead if they try to grab the oil or the refineries


and thus the Mexican forces come on, get their heads handed to them by the 40th and draw back - and the 40th just stays put and makes sure that Bakersfield gets held

thats why HW doesnt make sense - you dont go thru all that trouble to hold Bakersfield and then withdraw - not when if you do there goes the last oil on the west coast

[Olefin]

I see the Mexican invasion as one that wasnt that well thought out by GDW much as the CivGov effort in Yugoslavia wasnt thought out

its almost like an afterthought - how do we get to do Red Dawn in the game - hey I got it lets have Mexico invade the US with the Russians sending a divsion along for the ride!

and if you are discussing the Mexicans - why did the Texian Legion, who wants independence for Texas, spend so much time fighting US units and not Mexican ones? If they are strong enough to wipe out a US Reserve Infantry Division (which for all we know may have had as few as 3000 men in it) then why the heck havent they driven the Mexicans out of most of Texas?

its not like the current Mexican Army could do much to stop them

[Webstral]

If memory serves, US Army Vehicle Guide lists 40th ID as being in central California in July 2000. They are controlling an area centered on a Sacramento-Oakland corridor. I’m not certain about this without checking my reference material, though. There is an MP brigade at Bakersfield. I agree that it’s odd that the Bakersfield oil is not being more heavily guarded. What are the possible explanations for this? Having driven the Grapevine (I-5 between the southern end of the Central Valley and the SoCal conurb), I can say that the road network offers few bypasses. Destruction of the road in a few places would effectively isolate the Central Valley from the south. There are a few smaller roads, but these are even more vulnerable to destruction.

The best I can come up with for the 40th not being at Bakersfield or at San Luis Obispo is that the security situation in the central Central Valley requires that AFV be present. This isn’t very satisfactory. There aren’t any enemy tanks around. It’s hard to imagine a civil unrest situation that can’t be handled by M2 or M113 with a cupola. Perhaps the Sixth US Army CG just can’t bear to have his most potent force far from his headquarters.

Regarding the Texian Legion, if memory serves they beat up a light infantry division engaged in clearing eastern Texas of hostile armed bands. The Mexicans may never have reached Texian Legion territory in any strength or at all. The Legion may have spent its strength in fighting federal forces. Afterwards, they may not have been in a position to try to expand their holdings. It’s hard to say.

[Olefin]

The US Army Guide reads as follows for the 40th

In May the division arrived at Camp Roberts, California.
After being reinforced by a variety of armored vehicles the
division was again redesignated as 40th Infantry Division
(Mechanized) and committed to combat against elements of the
Mexican Army and assorted armed bands.

Howling Wilderness has them in Lompac Tulare Monterrey Bakersfield - so they may be in the Bakersfield area after all

And the Texian Legion engaged the 85th Infantry and the 95th Infantry Division in January of 1999, with the 85th being surrounded and almost annihilated - meaning the Legion had enough combat power to take on two US light divisions (one of which had tank support) and emerge victorious - and this only a few months after they were defeated soundly by the 197th Infantry Brigade in October of 1998 (The brigade arrived in Louisiana in October and conducted a successful offensive against the Texian National Legion, breaking its grip on east Texas per the US Army Vehicle Guide)

So it seems the Legion must be quite a large force to be able to do all that

[Webstral]

That'll teach me for trying to have a discourse without checking my reference materials first.

Okay, so now I have my materials in front of me and can make better sense of things.

In California, we don’t have much to work with aside from a few mileposts. We know that 40th ID was reformed in Oregon in early 1998 and arrived at Camp Roberts, CA in May that same year. We know the division subsequently was committed to action against the Mexican Army and various armed bands. We know that in late 1999 the division nominally controls a huge swath of territory with corners at Bakersfield, Lompoc (next to Vandenberg AFB), Monterey (only 1 r), and Tulare. We know that in July 2000 the division left Milgov service on sufficiently favorable terms for 900 personnel to relocate to Sacramento.

We know 46th ID moved by road from Ft. Carson, CO to central California in the last quarter of 1998 after being rebuilt at Carson. In late 1999 the division occupied defensive positions in the southeastern portion of the Central Valley. In July 2000, the division relocated north to Sacramento.

We know 49th MP Brigade fought Mexican forces in 1998 and was forced back to Camp Roberts by the end of the year. We know that at the end of 2000, the brigade moved to Stockton—a useful position if barge traffic is still functioning.

We know that at some point in 2000 the 221st MP Brigade was disbanded and used to reinforce other Milgov units in Sixth US Army.

We don’t know much else. The Mexican Army article in Challenge doesn’t give specific locations for the units of the former Second Mexican Army. We know from City of Angels that some Mexican troops are located in and around Los Angeles. I honestly can’t imagine what they are doing there.

It seems most likely to me that most surviving Mexican units in California will be located in and around the Imperial Valley. This is where the food is, provided the water has been kept flowing. I have long suspected that the Constitucionales (EMC) would have pushed their control east to Yuma and ejected any Nationalists who remained there after the split. The real prize would be the Imperial Diversion Dam, if it is intact in July 2000. If so, then I suspect the Army of California is focused on the Imperial Valley for its food, the nearby Desert Cities for any surviving industry, and the Imperial Dam-Yuma area for control of the water for the Imperial Valley. Taken together, the units of the Army of California dispose 3,500 troops and 16 AFV in July 2000. It seems unlikely to me that with a civil war ramping up in Mexico they would have any interest in Los Angeles, to say nothing of tangling with the Americans in the Central Valley or along the coast. I think that by 2001 the Second Mexican-American War has gone into remission in California.

There has been some work done to fill in some of the gaps in California from June 1998 through July 2000. I’ve done some of it, and some others have completed some very good work.

Texas is another issue deserving attention on another day.

[Olefin]

In my T2KU the Howling Wildnerness changes never happened and the US is about to go over to the offensive finally in 2001 in CA to eject the Mexicans. I dont agree with the movement of the 40th out of its original cantonment for one big reason - OIL. Thats why the MilGov move makes no sense and again makes me think the authors didnt know the state very well - you dont have your units in OK basically fight to death to guard it and then walk away from a huge oil field in Bakersfield and wells and small refineries that werent hit in the exchange.

So that part of HW, even more so than other parts, makes no sense whatsoever - the 40th isnt going to walk away from that much oil.

And the Challenge article does give the locations - you just have to work out the latitude and longitude positions -but you are right - most of them are right along the border - but there are units deployed in the Los Angeles area but not in the city itself

[Webstral]

The 40th doesn't walk away from the oil. Sixth US Army does, it seems, but 40th ID does not. I’m also inclined to dismiss both the severe drought and the very high attrition rate of military units that are not generally in high-tempo combat, as we have all discussed at great length. Once the population and food supplies balance out, which they seem to have done in most places by the time the Fall harvest of 2000 comes in, recruitment should be able to keep pace with losses fairly easily.

It is hard to understand why things develop the way the authors describe in California. The Bakersfield oil would be a major factor in the thinking of the senior leadership in the region. One possibility is that the supply of oil or refined products becomes so small that it is not as big a deal as we might otherwise expect. Accidents or sabotage might be responsible for a refinery bottleneck. It’s hard to say. I do note that the parting of company between 63rd Corps and 40th ID seems amicable. Nine hundred troops from 40th ID leave the division and go north, which strongly suggests that some sort of modus vivendi has been worked out between Sixth US Army CG and the commander of 40th ID. Perhaps some sort of trade agreement has been put into place whereby Sixth US Army provides 40th ID with something they need in return for crude oil or refined products. While this sort of dealing seems counterintuitive on the surface, perhaps a few very level-headed people realized that blue-on-blue violence as a solution to their differences was going to weaken everybody and perhaps destroy some of the critical remaining infrastructure.

Originally Posted by Olefin

And the Challenge article does give the locations - you just have to work out the latitude and longitude positions -but you are right - most of them are right along the border - but there are units deployed in the Los Angeles area but not in the city itself

Interesting! I have a download that doesn’t have locations more specific than “California” or “South Texas”. I’d be curious to see the locations given in your resource on a map.

I really do wonder why the Army of California is putting manpower into patrolling/occupying Los Angeles. Most of us here understand what four nuclear strikes on the LA basin is going to do to LA County. The whole basin ought to look more-or-less like Tokyo after the last big firebombing raid before the attack on Hiroshima. I haven’t read City of Angels extensively, so I’m not familiar with the rationale given for the presence of Mexican Army units. It seems to me like a needless diversion of resources.

When I was still putting time into Thunder Empire, I gave some thought to the fate of the Army of California. It seems to me that the Second Mexican Civil War offers the Americans an opportunity, though not without cost. We know that there are two main factions fighting for control of Mexico: the Nationalists (ENM? Really, the PRI) and the Constitutionalists (EMC). There are several smaller groups, and they are not without their importance. What matters is that the EMC is the main rival to the PRI throughout most of Mexico in 2000.

Milgov is going to want to see regime change in Mexico, if at all possible. If this isn’t possible, then Milgov would like to see an independent Republica del Norte or Aztlan Republic in northern Mexico to be a buffer between the US and the main body of Mexico. This amounts to supporting the EMC. EMC control over the Imperial Valley and the Imperial Dam gives them an important base of supply upon which an offensive to capture the rest of Baja California and/or Sonora might be based. The Americans want to regain control over this resource, but taking this resource from the EMC would deprive them of a crucial resource for their own efforts even if forces available to Milgov in the American Southwest were up to the task and could get it done without major losses. It’s a challenge.

Los Angeles is going to be reduced to ashes and rubble by firestorm. The thermal pulses from four separate nuclear explosions within the basin will create a firestorm that will dwarf anything seen in WW2. Greater Los Angeles is noteworthy for being wall-to-wall development. Obviously, not everything will be completely destroyed. But the level of destruction will be spectacular--comparable to Warsaw only even more widespread.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Webstral

We know from City of Angels that some Mexican troops are located in and around Los Angeles. I honestly can’t imagine what they are doing there.

Organized looting? Lot of territory to cover, and lots of it will have been churned through once or twice before.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

considering the sheer size of LA plus the cities in the basin there is a big chance there is a LOT of stuff left to find there - and keep in mind that some of the others that were previously too radioactive to look at may have now cooled down


the other thing is to look at the placement of the nuke strikes - many of them would have left a lot of LA intact

always wondered why the authors didnt have the Russians try to set off the San Andreas with nuke strikes on the fault line