Captured Vehicles & Battlefield Recognition Symbols

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Targan

Auto cars, manual cars, trucks with split shift gear boxes, motorcycles - bring it on. I can drive them all.

Most military vehicles have manual transmission, if your PC has a wheel vehicle skill than he should know how to drive with a manual transmission

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Most military vehicles have manual transmission, if your PC has a wheel vehicle skill than he should know how to drive with a manual transmission

Except, apparently, in the US military... :/

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Except, apparently, in the US military... :/

I don't think so your forgeting the M939 5 Ton

[Legbreaker]

One out of how many types of vehicles in the US inventory?

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

One out of how many types of vehicles in the US inventory?

I think it started in '85 and slowly spread, The final M151's And M35's were being automatic variants before being replaced. An M36 2 1/2T is REO's designation. Same with the 5T trucks. "M" series tractors weren't altered yet, I don't know if it ever started.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

One out of how many types of vehicles in the US inventory?

The US Army had/has? over 20,000 in this inventory, given it's many variants, the number made and its many uses, many soldiers would received training on it.

It's also found in basic rule book of Twilight 2000 V 2.2, probably due to it being produce in huge numbers in the US

[Legbreaker]

Anyway, I'm sure ex/current US military members amongst us can give us a clearer picture of the prevalence of automatic/manual vehicles than either of us. We can look at statistics all day long, but there's nothing like hearing from somebody who's been there, done that.

[unkated]

Given the number of skills listed in the game vs the number of skills available/used in RL, I'd call this a difference not worth noting for the sake of granualrity, and assume that somewhere before you leap behind the wheel of a vehicle in T2K that if you have wheeled vehicle skill, someone taught you to drive a stick.

Or, in Paul's case, no wheeled vehicle skill :-)

You could mark the skill with an asterisk (for a driver without manual transmission training) and make the maintenance roll for the vehicle one level more difficult after being driven by with only automatic transmission skills...

Personally, I can use a manual transmission; I taught my wife, and my son (who picked most of it up himself, but he's an automotive wunderkind).

To me, a more important division within "Wheeled vehicle" is the difference between driving something car/lt truck sized (up to a 1-ton truck) and something bigger - say a 5-ton....

Uncle Ted

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I don't think so your forgeting the M939 5 Ton

Except that the M939 is a five-speed automatic with a 240hp CUMMINS diesel. I have driven all three of the US Army's post WW2 5-tons and all of them in a single year.

Fresh out of Boot, I was given the oldest truck in the motor pool for RSOP duty. The M39A2 was made in 1967 (a year before I was born). It was a "rust bucket" with a leaky canvas roof and the older ring mount for an AA machine gun. The MACK V8 Diesel was a copy of the older two-stroke Detroit with a turbo and a 5 speed Spicer Hi and Low range manual transmission. It had ALL of the characteristics of a Detroit. It ran best when held against the governor (2K rpms), and leaked oil like a Detroit does. It only had 200 hp and a top speed of 50 mph. It had a load of torq at 600 lbs, so you could push through most terrain when loaded. The Vietnam vets swore by that truck because you could shoot off an entire cylinder bank and it would still run as long as it could get compression to detonate the fuel. It also had air over hydraulic for the brakes. Losing air pressure didn't entirely rob you of your breaks. My truck was actually a 7 cylinder because one of the pistons had blown its rings and the mechanics couldn't get a replacement kit.

Two months later I graduated to an AM General M809 5-Ton and the old M39 went off to the Surplus Market. The M809 was also a 5-speed manual (CUMMINS) with a CUMMINS NHC250 V6. It had a Hi-Lo tranny, Air over Hydraulics for brakes, and WORKING air driven windshield wipers (Yaa!). With 250 hp and 400 ft/lbs of torq it was a bit faster to speed, but maxed out at 55mph.

At the beginning of the next year, I got my AM General M939 5-Ton. CUMMINS V6 Diesel with 240hp and 500 ft/lbs of torq mated to a CUMMINS 5-speed AUTOMATIC with both Hi and Low range. Central Tire Inflation System, mated to Super Duty fully articulated Super Single tires (no more duals). 6X6 wheel drive IN ADDITION to a Split Differential to ensure no more "winching" or "towing" out of mud pits at Ft. Drum. The only thing they screwed up was the air system. It was redundant Air over Air but it was supplied by ONLY ONE compressor located on the driver's side of the engine block. Lose your compressor...Lose your breaks and ranging. The shifter would still work if you muscled it. We would drive these like a "clutchless stick shift." I still remember the shift points in my old M931 Tractor at the 475th Qm Co. 6mph, 17mph, 31mph, 45mph. Top Speed was governed to 65 mph but it would do 80 mph with the governor backed off. Tires were "squirmy" at those speeds though.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Except, apparently, in the US military... :/

In the US Military of 2016, yes most are automatic. In the Military of TW2000 I think only the Hummer was automatic.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by CDAT

In the US Military of 2016, yes most are automatic. In the Military of TW2000 I think only the Hummer was automatic.

The Army went all Automatic in 1983. They finally got it done in the early 90's. The M939, M931 tractor, HEMMETT, and Hummer were all automatic with Central Tire Inflation System and Self Leveling Suspension for the big trucks. The Hummer graduated from the naturally aspirated 6.3L Diesel found in Chevy pickups to the larger 6.5L Diesel to the "High Output" Turbo Diesel (pre- Duramax) that was chipped. These "High Outputs" would NOT have survived the Exchange (EMP). The newer "eco-friendly" 5-Tons and 10-Tons bought after the First Gulf War were "chipped" too. I'm guessing the US would have lost half its logistics support in the Exchange. They would have had a lot of "parts trucks" to cannibalize from though....

[swaghauler]

I follow the example of Skills in T2k13 for my Skills System. The Wheeled and Tracked Vehicle skills include both automatic and manual transmissions up to 5-Tons in Wheeled and 10-Tons in Tracked. I could teach ANYONE in this forum to drive an M939 5-Ton in about an hour. For vehicles weighing OVER 5 Tons (or 10 Tons for Tracked), the player must buy a Heavy Wheeled (or Tracked) Vehicle Qualification. This is essentially "a skill within a skill." You must buy it to drive the bigger vehicles. It gives you the skill to negotiate terrain with the longer and heavier vehicle as well as the ability to drive more sophisticated transmissions such as 8,9,10,13,15,18 and 20 speed "ranged" and "split" unsynchronized transmissions. I do the same for boating and piloting skills (Multi-engine, Heavy).
A Qualification is bought exactly the same as the driving skill, but THE QUALIFICATION CANNOT BE HIGHER THAN THE DRIVING SKILL IT IS LINKED TO. Whenever a Qualification is used, BOTH the Qualification AND the Driving Skill gain Experience (I use "Skill-Specific" Experience points). If ONLY the Driving Skill is used, The Qualification DOES NOT gain any experience. I allow my players to select a number of vehicles equal to their "Raw (non-asset) Skill" as vehicles they have personal experience with. They must pick HALF of these from their own Army's vehicle list. This also applies to any Vehicle Qualifications as well. I then give the character a small bonus during game play when they driving a vehicle he or she has prior knowledge of.

I give modifications to tasks during game play for driving a "stick" or an "automatic." An automatic will allow an automatic success in an acceleration under enemy fire. A "Stick" will require a roll. A "stick" will give you a bonus driving "off-road" because of the greater control it imparts. My players seem to agree with the way my Skill System works.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I follow the example of Skills in T2k13 for my Skills System. The Wheeled and Tracked Vehicle skills include both automatic and manual transmissions up to 5-Tons in Wheeled and 10-Tons in Tracked. I could teach ANYONE in this forum to drive an M939 5-Ton in about an hour. For vehicles weighing OVER 5 Tons (or 10 Tons for Tracked), the player must buy a Heavy Wheeled (or Tracked) Vehicle Qualification. This is essentially "a skill within a skill." You must buy it to drive the bigger vehicles. It gives you the skill to negotiate terrain with the longer and heavier vehicle as well as the ability to drive more sophisticated transmissions such as 8,9,10,13,15,18 and 20 speed "ranged" and "split" unsynchronized transmissions. I do the same for boating and piloting skills (Multi-engine, Heavy).
A Qualification is bought exactly the same as the driving skill, but THE QUALIFICATION CANNOT BE HIGHER THAN THE DRIVING SKILL IT IS LINKED TO. Whenever a Qualification is used, BOTH the Qualification AND the Driving Skill gain Experience (I use "Skill-Specific" Experience points). If ONLY the Driving Skill is used, The Qualification DOES NOT gain any experience. I allow my players to select a number of vehicles equal to their "Raw (non-asset) Skill" as vehicles they have personal experience with. They must pick HALF of these from their own Army's vehicle list. This also applies to any Vehicle Qualifications as well. I then give the character a small bonus during game play when they driving a vehicle he or she has prior knowledge of.

I give modifications to tasks during game play for driving a "stick" or an "automatic." An automatic will allow an automatic success in an acceleration under enemy fire. A "Stick" will require a roll. A "stick" will give you a bonus driving "off-road" because of the greater control it imparts. My players seem to agree with the way my Skill System works.

I used a very similar system in my Gunmaster: 2000 conversion.

[Raellus]

I've been thinking more about this recently, as the PCs in my 1e timeline/4e rules solo campaign are rolling around Poland in a former Polish army OT-64 SKOT seconded to the US Army.

The war in Ukraine is an interesting case study in vehicle recognition practices. Both sides use a lot of Soviet-era AFVs. Very few of the Russian AFVs I've seen bear any sort of national markings. By this point in the war, they seem to have semi-officially adopted the Z symbol (painted in white) for most of their AFVs, even though it was originally used by Russian troops in only one particular area during the initial invasion.

The Ukrainians, on the other hand, do make use of some roundels in national colors. Some vehicle don't use blue and yellow markings, and instead use a simple white cross (often spray-painted on). I've seen some UAF AFVs with both blue and yellow roundels, and the white cross symbol.

We know from canon (Plate G2 in the Soviet Vehicle Guide) that the US used captured Soviet AFVs, as did various marauder groups (Plate H2 in the SVG). It's common sense that, by 2000, with functioning AFVs of all types in extremely short supply, that both combatants would be making use of captured enemy AFVs. IMHO, a white or black star (US), and a red star (USSR) just wouldn't cut it for battlefield recognition. Surely, other symbols were used to ID and differentiate.

-

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The Army went all Automatic in 1983. They finally got it done in the early 90's. The M939, M931 tractor, HEMMETT, and Hummer were all automatic with Central Tire Inflation System and Self Leveling Suspension for the big trucks. The Hummer graduated from the naturally aspirated 6.3L Diesel found in Chevy pickups to the larger 6.5L Diesel to the "High Output" Turbo Diesel (pre- Duramax) that was chipped. These "High Outputs" would NOT have survived the Exchange (EMP). The newer "eco-friendly" 5-Tons and 10-Tons bought after the First Gulf War were "chipped" too. I'm guessing the US would have lost half its logistics support in the Exchange. They would have had a lot of "parts trucks" to cannibalize from though....

That may have been the official stance, but it is not true. I joined in 1993 right out of OSUT I got sent to HHC for a tank battalion, all of our 2 1/2 tons, and 5 tons were manual, we still had some jeeps (again manual), I forgot about the HEMMETT but yes they were also automatic. The hummers we had did not have the tire inflation system, I do not know about eh HEMMETT's as did not ever use them. Heck when I deployed in 2003 all of our 5 tons were still manual. The first time I was in a unit with out a manual transmission was when I reclassed to EOD in 2005.