Happy St Patricks Day!

[Mohoender]

I remained at the information level (especially as I misunderstood some of the point made by Targan ) but Marc perfectly illustrated his point. I have the same concern than him as I wish to see my daughters learn some "Provencal". I am from Wallon decent (my parents) and I already lost that.

The problem with my daughters learning "Provencal" is that, despite government official position, it is fairly hard to find teachers.

And, Marc, I don't find your position to be "provincial" in any way as I'm convinced that some kind globalisation is only possible if we preserve the local cultures as well. Catalonia is a good exemple of that. The current mistake is to play one against the other (IMO, of course).

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I remained at the information level (especially as I misunderstood some of the point made by Targan ) but Marc perfectly illustrated his point. I have the same concern than him as I wish to see my daughters learn some "Provencal". I am from Wallon decent (my parents) and I already lost that.

The problem with my daughters learning "Provencal" is that, despite government official position, it is fairly hard to find teachers.

And, Marc, I don't find your position to be "provincial" in any way as I'm convinced that some kind globalisation is only possible if we preserve the local cultures as well. Catalonia is a good exemple of that. The current mistake is to play one against the other (IMO, of course).

Agreed. I wish to occitans and provençals the best of lucks in keeping your language with all of its dialects alive. I know your situation is difficult, but it seems that the future may be better. For Catalans, Provença and specially OccitÃÂ*nia are like distant cousins. Or not so distant. The occitan has been considered in our new statute of autonomy as co official language, as the occitan is spoken in one of our regions (Val d'Aran).

I remember the first time I were in OccitÃÂ*nia with my wife. We crossed the Pirenees on foot, from Berga to Montsegur, covering the 200 km of the Chemin des Bonshommes. Once in Montsegur, we became somewhat disappointed when we discover the limited presence of the occitanian in day-to-day life. I suppose we have the innocent hope that the old ties have prevailed across the Pirennes, despite the state borders and that we could ask in catalan and being answered in occitan . It was upsetting to have the feeling to be able to read and understand some of the troubadour poems in "lingua d'oc" of their historical heritage better than some of the locals. A useful warning for us to keep our language in use.

Anyway, in our second visit to France (a route from Carcassone to Cahors) we have a pleasant chance to find and visit a school were the children were educated in occitanian. You still have a chance to keep these languages alive.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Marc

Anyway, in our second visit to France (a route from Carcassone to Cahors) we have a pleasant chance to find and visit a school were the children were educated in occitanian. You still have a chance to keep these languages alive.

I do agree. This was achieved not so long ago (something like the late 80's) for every regional language. However, it should be allowed in public schools but this is more difficult. The law grants that right to all regions. You'll even have teachers around. However, you need to be really motivated if you want the minister to recognize the right for these teachers to teach in public schools. Then, if one of your kid wants to present a regional language as a second language to final examination it's equally difficult for them. They have the right to have a regional language as second language but most academy will not grant them the right to pass the exam (on the ground that there are not enough teachers). The problem with France is that we have tons of laws and only apply a small part of them. Still we are a bit further ahead than you but that's normal we started earlier.

That's like women issue in France. I recently discovered that the same rights have been granted to women and men since 1946 through our constitution (in all maters). Still we are far from achieving that in every day life. The military has granted them access to all position only in the late 1990's, they remain under paid. None of our political party grant them the legal quorum... 62 years that France (Liberté Egalité Fraternité), country of human rights, does not even comply to its own constitution.

[Targan]

My previous point applies just as much to Catalan as it does to any other language including English. Widespread literacy combined with audio and audio-visual recording would help any and all languages survive. That is logical and obvious, surely?

The issue of a minority language being swamped by a majority neighbouring language due to, say, the majority language being the only one used in broadcast media or minority languages receiving poor official recognition and protection is a separate issue. Having said that I also want to point out that I wholeheartedly agree with recognising and protecting individual languages and cultures.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

The issue of a minority language being swamped by a majority neighbouring language due to, say, the majority language being the only one used in broadcast media or minority languages receiving poor official recognition and protection is a separate issue. Having said that I also want to point out that I wholeheartedly agree with recognising and protecting individual languages and cultures.

I agree. That's why I said I misunderstood your point hé hé.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Targan

Widespread literacy combined with audio and audio-visual recording would help any and all languages survive.

Bon dia!

I agree totally in this point, too. But it would not prevent any language to suffer the normal (and quick in some places) evolution. Spanglish is a good example of very quick fusion of two strong, quiet different and healthy languages.


Mmmmm...St Patricks day must be a very long day...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Marc

Mmmmm...St Patricks day must be a very long day...

I would guess that would depend on how much you had to drink...