US Air Force Locations

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

As I said before HW is one module that has been discussed to death and whose many plot holes and contradictions with earlier Modules I won't even start to get into. As for your earlier points - one refinery operating at full capacity is hardly going to be the huge change to canon you point it out as being. Would it being fully operational give the 194th and the 197th enough fuel to be fully operational while still leaving enough left over to provide a limited amount of jet fuel for MilGov - the answer is yes. Would that mean a huge change to the game that you have stated? The obvious answer is no. All by itself the Robinson refinery running at full capacity couldn't even begin to make enough fuel to change the strategic picture in the US. But what it could do is provide enough fuel to make possible limited transport flights and the occasional use of remaining attack aircraft. It could give the 194th and the 197th and most likely the 49th the fuel to operate and do proper patrols and maybe limited offensive actions - but that's about it.

Meaning it helps MilGov stabilize a limited area and have some air ops possible - which is hardly the complete game changer you paint. If you think that then if the Soviets get their hands on the refinery in Texas then surely the Mexican and Soviet flag will be flying over half the country soon. It takes a lot more than one refinery working at full capacity to change the game and the world as much as you describe

According the Red Star/Lone Star the Soviets are in control of the Port Isabel refinery, but the offshore Gulfwind Forty oil rig which is still connected to it is under the control of a large Mexican criminal organisation and a small group of Texan marauders.

Also what the Soviets have in Texas and the rest of the south-west is all that they have. Even Soviet forces in Alaska/Western Canada have no hope of reinforcement from the Soviet Union. If they get regular oil supplies it will help them to consolidate their defensive position but no more. The Mexicans are not in much better shape.

MilGov on the other hand has access to about 90% of the remaining US military assets in CONUS, and a great deal of the surviving resources and population of the United States. If Robinson is running from the end of 1997 into 2000 with a regular and large oil supply on the scale you are implying without any real threat, then you have a very sound platform to rebuild the US military in this region. The tanks/AFV listing of each unit is what they have running, not other vehicles that could also be running if there is fuel available. The US military had thousands of tanks, and tens of thousands of other armoured, support and lighter armoured vehicles. Many of these never left CONUS and all of them have by no means been destroyed since the nuclear strikes.

With Robinson running before its accident in 2001 MilGov would have raised a large mechanised and well armed force, and if you add air power then CivGov and New America won't stand a chance. By 2000 the Mid-West and Great Lakes should be totally under the control of MilGov. MilGov would also have expanding its authority into New England, the Mid-Atlantic states and the south, and across the west as far as the frontlines in Texas, California and maybe into Canada.

[kalos72]

The difference here is reality vs canon.

Canon was designed to make the outlook bleak. Its suppose to feel like the end is near and every decision the PC's make could mean the end of it all.

But the reality is, if even 1% of the possible oil in Illinois was pumping, MILGOV should have been able to control much larger sections of the country and the rebuilding process wouldn't be so "apocalyptic".

But I would argue that canon doesnt say that there isn't any fuel, just a trickle. 1% of total production could be construed as a trickle. But MILGOV has been inadept at doing anything with the resources it has at its disposal.

If they weren't, the look feel of the game wouldn't be the same...

[Legbreaker]

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

And if you ignore HW and Kidnapped then its in a totally different state - I prefer to go with the modules that actually show MilGov and CivGov are starting to return order - and not with a drought that would kill off the country for good no matter what they do or with military units somehow unable to recruit in their own country when the Germans and Brits and others were able to do so for years of war in their countries

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Germany UK France, etc will all survive with arguably more nuclear tonnage being dropped on them, but the US will die. MILGOV/CIVGOV will implode and the rest of the country falls into Morrow-esque type of world.

The FACT is no canon reference says "the MILGOV only had 10000 gallons of diesel", the writers kept it vague for many reasons. One, they didnt want to spend months doing the research and two to allow the players some room to grow and move around in the general outline they devised.

Who wants to play through a scenario that, regardless of what they do or how well they perform, their government still dies and the US is lost? Thats what HW does to the world IMHO...

[Olefin]

the math from HW and Kidnapped basically shows that drought as killing off the country - half is still alive - but there is only enough food that can be grown due to the drought to feed 1/4 of what is left - meaning 1/8th the pre-war population - so now you have a huge die off in a very short time among already weakened survivors combined with fighting for whats left ruining whats planted, widespread disease finishing off the survivors from millions of dead bodies rotting unburied because there wont be anyone left to bury them, etc. - meaning by years end most likely you are looking at 1/16th to 1/32nd the population still left alive maybe (in an optimistic projection)

That's not Twilight 2000 - that's Morrow or Aftermath

and yet somehow per 2300 the US reunites within 20 years of a catastrophe like that and gets back into space that same century?

that's why I go with the earlier modules - and stay with Twilight 2000 style gaming

[kato13]

I had a gaming group that was working with the 194th and the refinery.

Trying to figure out what to do with the myriad of refined products was an adventure (in research) in its own right.

There would be literally tons of asphalt and other slag elements similar to coal tar.

A huge majority of modern chemistry evolved out of finding uses for the "waste" products of coal and oil.

Just being able to produce items available in 1900 would be amazing. Aspirin, DDT, and several synthetic fertilizers fit that bill so they were given priority.

This campaign ended with out too many sessions (people went off to college), but I always considered it a interesting seed for those more on the rebuilding side of the spectrum of campaigns.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kato13

I had a gaming group that was working with the 194th and the refinery.

Trying to figure out what to do with the myriad of refined products was an adventure (in research) in its own right.

There would be literally tons of asphalt and other slag elements similar to coal tar.

A huge majority of modern chemistry evolved out of finding uses for the "waste" products of coal and oil.

Just being able to produce items available in 1900 would be amazing. Aspirin, DDT, and several synthetic fertilizers fit that bill so they were given priority.

This campaign ended with out too many sessions (people went off to college), but I always considered it a interesting seed for those more on the rebuilding side of the spectrum of campaigns.

let alone all the fun involved in getting oil to the refinery - possibly setting up a barter system - so much oil delivered from wells you get X amount of trade goods or products from the refinery as pay

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Of course not. The world in 2000/01 is on the ropes, a hairs breadth from the abyss but not gone yet. PCs actions can either give it that last shove, or help build something new and hopefully better. There's still a long way to fall though before it's hopeless, perhaps another 10-20% of the population to die world wide before stability and adaptation to the changed global conditions is reached.

HW deals with North America, specifically the US. This one small area is not the entire world. Other areas may have had their climate improved and wide scale migration to those areas will have to take place. Nobody can afford to presume what worked pre-war will work to keep them alive in the aftermath. HW actually states several areas are not absolutely cataclysmic. The Great Lakes region is still able to produce vast amounts of food, sufficient to help support the reduced population provided it can be distributed, or the people moved closer (and civil unrest kept under control). The Pacific North West is receiving torrential amounts of rainfall. It will take time to adapt to the climatic changes, but it's not the end of the world.

The Drought may not last more than a few short years - that's up to individual GMs to decide. The planet will heal itself, all the quicker given the drastically reduced pollution from humans.

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Of course not. The world in 2000/01 is on the ropes, a hairs breadth from the abyss but not gone yet. PCs actions can either give it that last shove, or help build something new and hopefully better. There's still a long way to fall though before it's hopeless, perhaps another 10-20% of the population to die world wide before stability and adaptation to the changed global conditions is reached.

HW deals with North America, specifically the US. This one small area is not the entire world. Other areas may have had their climate improved and wide scale migration to those areas will have to take place. Nobody can afford to presume what worked pre-war will work to keep them alive in the aftermath.

So again, Germany is fine, no climate changes cause nothing was ever said about it. But the US with less tonnage and less war effects, is sent into a solar oven?

And I think your going off canon with this 10-20% number...

But my reference was as it relates to the US, since HW only really deals with the US. And what exactly is a group of PC's going to do to save the US at this point? There is no food, no water and the government is dieing off...the scale is too far out of proportion here.

[Legbreaker]

Climatic changes are really only starting to be felt when the game shifts focus from Europe. There was no real need to detail what was going on there, but GMs are certainly free to apply similar upheavals.

PCs can't do anything about the climate, that's far beyond the scope of the game. Only massive civil engineering projects will help there (new dams, railroads and other similar infrastructure). They can however be very effective as "trouble shooters", such as in Kidnapped where they're tasked to essentially clear the way for the Civgov relocation. Another example is Satellite Down where their recovery of the weather data will give the authorities a massive assist in planning how to deal with the next few years.

Failure in their mission(s) would help tip the world (or at least the world as far as they're concerned) over the brink.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the canon does not say the Soviets have control of the refinery or that the marauders and criminals have control of the offshore platform - what it says is that is what the criminals and marauders have control of both and that the Soviets are trying to take both over - and that if they do get both (i.e. unless the players can stop them) then the Soviets will have access to all kinds of fuel including aviation fuel for their grounded attack helicopters - give them that fuel and its a whole new ballgame in Texas for them

Same for the Mexican troops there - get access to all that fuel and basically you can kiss the Grange and other resistance forces goodbye - and there goes Kingsley and Texas

and its pretty obvious that Cummings and CivGov did have access to oil and fuel from 1997 to 2000 - they fought the Mexican invasion force and there were air battles as part of that invasion - and they shipped several divisions overseas as well as fought the Soviets and Mexicans that whole time

so they did have that fuel at least thru 1999 - and eventually what was left of the grid went down and stopped most of what production was left - one refinery cant do it all - it cant make fuel, lubricants, bunker and diesel oil for power, etc. for the entire Midwest- but what it can do is keep a small amount of planes in the air, provide fuel for the tanks they have left and provide fuel to grow food for where MilGov has its troops that can get that fuel and probably keep the lights on in a few select factories making mortar rounds and spare parts and reloads