US 2nd Fleet Questions

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by kalos72

For as many questions as I ask, I think I need to buy a copy of that book.

So you are thinking any naval support for this operation in 1997 would come from Carrier Group 6 with the America?

Do you think sending a full Carrier Group to support an operation securing the Panama Canal si too much? Would the Carrier Group stay in the Caribbean if the naval loses some have touted were actually happening?

I just picked USS America out of the 9 carriers assigned to the Atlantic Fleets. Mostly picked her because she has a mixed USN/USMC air wing.

From what I understand of real Fleet operations in the 1990s, carriers were heavily protected, no less than two AEGIS cruisers for anti-air, supported by DDGs with Spruance/Perry's/nuke submarines for ASW defensive, the carrier battle groups were considered to be tough targets. This doesn't mean that a sub couldn't get in a lucky shot, but it was widely accepted that if you wanted a carrier, you would pay heavily.

Now, for a target such as the Canal, depending on what is defending, it would be more likely that two or more CBGs would be assigned, striking each end of the Canal, with airborne elements seizing the locks and pumping stations. Considering the strategic importance of the Panama Canal to the US, it would be a major effort, unless the Soviets decided a couple of nukes would be a more effective solution.

As for the books, try Amazon, they keep looking up at some very reasonable prices. The 2001 edition of Combat Fleets of the World, normally 900.00, went for 21.00 plus shipping!!!!!!

[dragoon500ly]

The USMC during this time frame has an active component comprised of three infantry divisions, three air wings and three force service support groups.

Each Marine division consists of three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment and several combat and support battalions, each infantry regiment is, in turn, made up of three infantry battalions, each with three rifle companies.

Since the mid-1970s, the Marines have stressed the concept of Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) organizations, which provides for combined arms at all levels of force deployments.

As of 1992, the Marines operate three MAGTF organizations:

Marine Amphibious Unit (MAU): consisting of a battalion landing team, a composite air squadron and a MAU service support group with some 2,506 personnel and requiring 4-6 amphibious ships for transport.

Marine Amphibious Brigade (MAB): consisting of a regimental landing team, a composite air group and a brigade service support group with some 15,670 personnel and requiring 21-26 amphibious ships.

Marine Amphibious Force (MAF): consisting of a Marine division, a Air Wing, and a force service support group with 50,600 personnel and requiring 50 amphibious ships for transport.

With the 1992 level personnel and equipment totals, the USMC could field 2-3 MAFs or up to 6 MABs or up to 12 MAUs.

The USMC currently fields the following:
1st MAB for use with Indian Ocean Maritime Pre-positioning Squadron (MPS).
4th MAB at Camp Lejeune, NC for deployment to Norway.
5th MAB at Camp Pendleton and 7th MAB at 29 Palms (both California) for use with MPS.
6th MAB at Camp Lejeune, NC for MPS duty in the Atlantic.
9th MAB at Okinawa.
11th MAU and 13th MAU for rotateing deployments with Seventh Fleet.
22nd, 24th and 26th MAUs at Camp Lejeune, NC for rotating deployments with Sixth Fleet.

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I just picked USS America out of the 9 carriers assigned to the Atlantic Fleets. Mostly picked her because she has a mixed USN/USMC air wing.

From what I understand of real Fleet operations in the 1990s, carriers were heavily protected, no less than two AEGIS cruisers for anti-air, supported by DDGs with Spruance/Perry's/nuke submarines for ASW defensive, the carrier battle groups were considered to be tough targets. This doesn't mean that a sub couldn't get in a lucky shot, but it was widely accepted that if you wanted a carrier, you would pay heavily.

Now, for a target such as the Canal, depending on what is defending, it would be more likely that two or more CBGs would be assigned, striking each end of the Canal, with airborne elements seizing the locks and pumping stations. Considering the strategic importance of the Panama Canal to the US, it would be a major effort, unless the Soviets decided a couple of nukes would be a more effective solution.

As for the books, try Amazon, they keep looking up at some very reasonable prices. The 2001 edition of Combat Fleets of the World, normally 900.00, went for 21.00 plus shipping!!!!!!

My campaign has the US defending the Canal, they kept control with the 193rd initially and then moved to strengthen it. in 1997 they were attacked by Anti us protestors in the Panamanian Defense Force and the US moved more forces to the PCZ to defend it.

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I just picked USS America out of the 9 carriers assigned to the Atlantic Fleets. Mostly picked her because she has a mixed USN/USMC air wing.

From what I understand of real Fleet operations in the 1990s, carriers were heavily protected, no less than two AEGIS cruisers for anti-air, supported by DDGs with Spruance/Perry's/nuke submarines for ASW defensive, the carrier battle groups were considered to be tough targets. This doesn't mean that a sub couldn't get in a lucky shot, but it was widely accepted that if you wanted a carrier, you would pay heavily.

I think I remember reading at some point at one time that the Soviets, even with the most optimistic assessment, expected to lose at least five subs for each carrier they managed to get a torpedo into.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by mpipes

I think I remember reading at some point at one time that the Soviets, even with the most optimistic assessment, expected to lose at least five subs for each carrier they managed to get a torpedo into.

With the fall of the Soviet Union a lot of their military publications started showing up in the West. The general opinion for a successful strike on a CBG was for a coordinated strike with 2-3 SSGNs, 2-4 SS/SSNs and 3-4 regiments of Backfires. The intent was to overwhelm USN defended with missile fire and using torpedoes to finish off survivors.

I've wargamed this several times with some navy buddies and the results have been mixed. One game had the Backfires suffering 80% losses. In another game two frigates and a P-3 managed to nail four submarines in a patrol line. In a weekend game, the heroic Soviets managed to attack from an unexpected direction and sank the carrier with minor losses. We even ran the Clancy scenario with two US and a French carrier against a massive 7 regiment attack, an exercise in mutual slaughter resulted.