Sweden in T2K

[RN7]

The issue about France being targeted or not by nuclear weapons in the Twilight War has been frequently argued on this site and others for years. I can remember arguing about this online on the old 2300AD sites nearly 20 years ago. Nobody could ever agree because there is no direct canon reference to France being targeted by nuclear weapons in any sourcebook, or at least no one has so far come across it or a list of French nuclear targets. Two main conclusions were reached. The first is that France was not targeted by nuclear weapons, and the second was that France was lightly targeted by nuclear weapons, i.e. some oil refineries and nothing else. I support the first conclusion.

From your quote from Twilight 2000 1st Edition Core Rules, Page 26

Originally Posted by Ewan

In V1 Referee's Manual page 26 it mentions that in 1997 that major industrial and oil centres in neutral countries had been attacked with nuclear weapons. Then in the entry for 1998 "In Europe, France and Belgium had been hit the lightest and stood virtually alone in maintaining a semblance of internal order throughout the cataclysm". The second edition has "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO".

This quote is from two separate paragraphs (separated by four paragraphs in fact) with different contexts. Although it could be implied from this that France was targeted by nuclear weapons, it doesn't specifically state that France was hit by nuclear weapons or does it give a list of French targets either. Other references to France from this book and other SB imply that France survived the nuclear war in very good shape. If it was targeted by nuclear weapons this would not be the case.

The way I look at it is through French reactions before, during and after the nuclear exchanges.

In 1996 France withdraws from NATO is response to German Reunification through a West German military invasion of East Germany.

From RDF SB. Page 15

"The French regarded the West German invasion of East Germany as lunatic. When the American, Canadian, and British troops crossed the East German frontier in support of the West Germans, the French were among the most vocal opponents of the move and were the first to officially withdraw from NATO, and declare their neutrality."

After this and before the nuclear exchanges France does not cooperate in any way with NATO.

In 1997 there is no direct reference to France being targeted by nuclear weapons. If France was targeted then you would expect the French who are a nuclear power to retaliate against whoever attacked France. As far as I know there is no canon reference to the French using any nuclear weapons against the Soviet Union or NATO. The British who have a similar sized nuclear arsenal to France and who were attacked by Soviet weapons, did retaliate against the Soviet Union with nuclear SLBM's and also launched a nuclear airstrike on the Kola Peninsula in 1998. Why did France not attack the Soviet Union with their nuclear arsenal?

In 1998 the French invade Germany and the Netherlands

From Going Home SB, Page 29

"In January 1998, the French government authorized its army to occupy all territory west of the Rhine to secure a solid geographic barrier and guarantee its frontiers against the hordes of refugees and renegade military personnel which were swarming across the border. In 2000, the French army continues to occupy this area."

If France was attacked by Soviet nuclear weapons you would expect the French to have rejoined NATO and send their army into Germany to support NATO against the Warsaw Pact. But they invade and occupy the German Rhineland the whole of the Netherlands south of the Rhine River. Germany and the Netherlands are NATO countries

In the summer of 1998 they send a fully equipped army Corp with air and naval support to the Middle East.

From RDF SB. Page 8

"On August 24th, the lead ships of a French troop convoy sailed into Al Kuwayt Harbor. Their cargo was the 9th Marine Division. Two days later, forward elements of the French 11th Airborne Division began landing in Djibouti. The French government made it clear that these forces were there to assist the host governments in maintaining order."

From RDF SB. Page 19

" The governments of Kuwayt and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region"

The French were in remarkably good shape to send a force of this size to the Middle East if they were hit by nuclear weapons. Also France didn't side with either American or Soviet forces in the Middle East, playing a strictly neutral role in the fighting. If either the U.S. or the Soviet Union had attacked France with nuclear weapons you would expect the French to be fighting either of them in the Middle East.

Also..

From RDF SB. Page 19

"In 1998 the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations"

France has now created a new power bloc in Europe and Africa, and by default with other French territories in Latin America, the Caribbean, the Indian Ocean and the Pacific, that is separate or even rival to NATO and the Warsaw Pact. For me this implies that France was not targeted by nuclear weapons. In regards to Sweden I have not seen any direct reference to a nuclear attack on Sweden either.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by RN7

The issue about France being targeted or not by nuclear weapons in the Twilight War has been frequently argued on this site and others for years. I can remember arguing about this online on the old 2300AD sites nearly 20 years ago. Nobody could ever agree because there is no direct canon reference to France being targeted by nuclear weapons in any sourcebook, or at least no one has so far come across it or a list of French nuclear targets. Two main conclusions were reached. The first is that France was not targeted by nuclear weapons, and the second was that France was lightly targeted by nuclear weapons, i.e. some oil refineries and nothing else. I support the first conclusion.

If John Farson's summary of the Finnish books is correct, the second conclusion is canon - there were nuclear strikes, but primarily along the coast.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by The Dark

If John Farson's summary of the Finnish books is correct, the second conclusion is canon - there were nuclear strikes, but primarily along the coast.

The answer to that question would be if the Finnish Sourcebook was published by Game Designer's Workshop which is basically what canon is?

[The Dark]

I think I found a decent piece of circumstantial evidence for v1. On the map from Going Home, in northeast France is a rubble marker labeled (LILLE). Rubble is either nuked or destroyed in conventional fighting (per the Referee's Manual), and there was no significant conventional fighting in France (their line on the Rhine would be well to the east of Lille). I don't remember France getting any mentions in v1 other than two sentences in the Referee's Manual and a tiny portion of the map in Going Home.

For v2.2, it's explicitly stated on page 226 that "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks...", so for that timeline, France was nuked unless the timeline from the core rules is tossed.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I think I found a decent piece of circumstantial evidence for v1. On the map from Going Home, in northeast France is a rubble marker labeled (LILLE). Rubble is either nuked or destroyed in conventional fighting (per the Referee's Manual), and there was no significant conventional fighting in France (their line on the Rhine would be well to the east of Lille). I don't remember France getting any mentions in v1 other than two sentences in the Referee's Manual and a tiny portion of the map in Going Home

I've seen that map and it also shows the Belgian towns of Antwerp and Ghent as ruined alongside Lille. Another map in Going Home also shows the German city of Hamburg in ruins, and we know from Going Home itself (page 21) that Hamburg wasn't subject to a nuclear attack as it was so heavily bombed beforehand that the Soviet spared it. From previous discussions about the map that shows Lille in ruins on other forums, the consensus was that Lille was targeted by vengeful German and Dutch bombing raids during and after the French occupation of the Rhineland.

Originally Posted by The Dark

For v2.2, it's explicitly stated on page 226 that "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks...", so for that timeline, France was nuked unless the timeline from the core rules is tossed.

If you want to go with V2 then France was hit by nuclear strikes and the country really isn't in very good shape which can be seen in the description of France on Page 225. If that is the case then the French will not be sending the FAR to the Middle East as they haven't the military ability to do so, and the French also have little or no influence in Africa or over their colonies around the world. I prefer V1

[Raellus]

I don't know for sure, but I don't think Farson's Finnish Sourcebook was published by FFE/GDW, at least not outside of Finland. Therefore, I don't think it's canon.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I think I found a decent piece of circumstantial evidence for v1. On the map from Going Home, in northeast France is a rubble marker labeled (LILLE). Rubble is either nuked or destroyed in conventional fighting (per the Referee's Manual), and there was no significant conventional fighting in France (their line on the Rhine would be well to the east of Lille).

There is a refinery in LILLE (or at least there was one in WWII)

https://books.google.com/books?id=NP...0lille&f=false

According to its wikipedia page it is considered to be the most Flemish French city, so it also could have been destroyed by rioting at some point.

[Rainbow Six]

AFAIK the Finnish material is based on the original GDW material but is effectively a standalone work with its own modified timeline. I certainly don't think it's canon.

To the best of my knowledge GDW never published anything that definitively stated one way or the other whether Sweden (or France for that matter) was nuked, although there's the occasional nugget of gold buried in Challenge magazines (e.g. the article on Italy for 2300 that mentions the Papacy relocating to Peruggia). If there is anything I suspect that's where it would be.

Personally, I think limited strikes on Sweden (and France) are both well within the realm of feasibility / canon.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Personally, I think limited strikes on Sweden (and France) are both well within the realm of feasibility / canon.

I think its based on your personal preference for V1 or V2.

I've always preferred V1 as the Soviet Union and the timeline and history is less complicated. In V2 there was a limited nuclear strike on France, but with that there is a bit of a trade off with the military power that France would have in the aftermath. I've always liked a big French force in the Middle East and in other locations, which gives an extra component to the traditional two dimensional US-Soviet rivalry.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by kato13

There is a refinery in LILLE (or at least there was one in WWII)

https://books.google.com/books?id=NP...0lille&f=false

According to its wikipedia page it is considered to be the most Flemish French city, so it also could have been destroyed by rioting at some point.

I don't think there is an oil refinery in Lille anymore, at least not one that I can find anyhow. The nearest French refinery is I believe in Dunkirk. A lot of French oil refineries seem to have closed or are not in operation at the moment, certainly compared to 20 years ago. Probably something to do with the proliferation of French nuclear reactors which has replaced a lot of oil and fossil fuel sources for electricity in France.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

I don't think there is an oil refinery in Lille anymore, at least not one that I can find anyhow. The nearest French refinery is I believe in Dunkirk. A lot of French oil refineries seem to have closed or are not in operation at the moment, certainly compared to 20 years ago. Probably something to do with the proliferation of French nuclear reactors which has replaced a lot of oil and fossil fuel sources for electricity in France.

Per the 2nd edition France was definitely nuked - and its seems to imply that Lyons and Paris were nuked or at least heavily damaged - see the comment about Marseilles

"Despite being neutral, France was subjected to nuclear strikes to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO. Damage was generally confined to coastal areas, but casualties were severe. Riots and civil confusion caused by the war and the influx of refugees forced the government to close France's borders, then occupy all territories west of the Rhine. A free-fire zone (commonly called La Zone Morte - the Dead Zone) has been established within 50km (31 miles) east of the Rhine. Officially, the border is closed to non-French citizens, but the guards are generally open to bribes. The border with Spain is closed, but often crossed by smugglers. The Union Corse (Corsican criminal underworld) dominate a thriving black market in the region. The government is increasingly repressive, but life in most areas is tolerable.
Some areas, particularly the mountains, are in open rebellion, and martial law is in effect. The government in the southern areas is corrupt and dominated by the Union Corse. Marseilles is the largest undamaged city in the country, though it is in a bad state compared to its pre-war condition. Some trade between Europe and the eastern Mediterranean passes through the city, which is entirely run by the Union Corse.

Most of France is organised (by the French government and military in most areas, by the Union Corse in some southern areas). A few areas in the mountains are disputed or independent. The area between the old border and the Rhine is a combination of terrorised, insular and cantonments. La Zone Morte is devastated"