dragon scale armour

[theDevil]

we have had some discussions about bulk on diverse equipment.
and as a player i would like to have freedom of movement, and at the same time be as bulletproof as a mountain (a bit of an exaggeration here, but anyway).

my question is as follows (and if this has been posted or asked before, I am truly sorry, also i am a bit under the weather (if only bullet came so small that i could mass slaughter those germs that has a party in my nose, that would be tha bomb.. ;P)).

so:
* are dragon scale armour more agile then regulear armour (you know, those with the plate and stuff), what stats would it have..?

* more dureable (can they take more hits then the other "leading brands")

any input..?
thx

[kcdusk]

my off the cuff answers would be

1) yes. Dragon armour is tuff but streatchy.

2) yes again. i think it would wear well, but might be more prone to being pierced by sharp weapons.

[Caradhras]

There are no dragons in Twilight 2000.

But in my Fantasy campaigns over the years, a good skinner and then leatherworker, then mage of some sort - could create dragonscale/hide armour as good or better than plate (depending on the toughness of the dragon). Also it often had some traits of the dragon's defense - ie added resilience to Cold or Fire etc.

[Rupert Willies]

Fantastic answer C, made me smile thinking of good old days.

From what I hear, the Dragon scale is really nice, but has a design flaw, some report, and that is if you are shot at an angle, a bullet may penetrate without being stopped by the ceramic disks. Most tests are performed shooting straight at the vest from front and back, but not at angles. Some feel this makes the armor unsafe, while others claim it's not a problem. I have not yet seen a test where the armor has been shot at from angles. The ceramic disks by them selves are great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/ maker's website


After checking the web a little, I think I badmouthed the dragon scale a little too soon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNY1MtsVwG8
http://www.defensereview.com/dragon-...year-warranty/
http://www.defensereview.com/why-the...armor-testing/

I apologize for not researching better before opening my mouth..

[Legbreaker]

Hmmm, 7.62x39mm isn't exactly high powered armour piercing rounds...

And as for 9mmP? The less said about it's penetrating power (or more accurately the lack of it) the better.

Still, ANY armour is better than none (unless it instills a false sense of invulnerability)...

[Rupert Willies]

* Six rounds of 7.62×51mm M80 (a Level III ammunition) were fired into a Dragon Skin body armor.
* All six rounds were defeated/stopped.

* Six round of armor piercing incendiary ammunition fired at this Dragon Skin vest.
* All six rounds were defeated/stopped.

Dragon Skin rules!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hmmm, 7.62x39mm isn't exactly high powered armour piercing rounds...

And as for 9mmP? The less said about it's penetrating power (or more accurately the lack of it) the better.

Still, ANY armour is better than none (unless it instills a false sense of invulnerability)...

[theDevil]

you got to love gunny Lee from mail call "Uuaa!!!"

dragon scale is my characters new best friend... lets hope there is no flaws in the armour popping up in the news before our next session...

flexible bulletproof west, can it GET! any better!?

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by theDevil

you got to love gunny Lee from mail call "Uuaa!!!"

dragon scale is my characters new best friend... lets hope there is no flaws in the armour popping up in the news before our next session...

flexible bulletproof west, can it GET! any better!?

Are you unfamiliar with the glue problem? It's rated to a very narrow range of temperatures. Outside of those, the glue either loses it's adhesiveness from the cold or melts from the heat and the "scales" fall to the bottom of the vest leaving huge, gaping holes for the bad guys to shoot through.

[Legbreaker]

Sounds like a VERY good reason for it to have been rejected.
Of course once they crack that problem, it may very well be something nobody leaves home without.

Still, nothing is ever perfect and people wearing it are still going to be injured and even killed from time to time.
I just hope the casualties are minimised.

[Mohoender]

Funny, this exchange remind me of AD&D (as someone pointed out).

I wont be saying much about the ballistic qualities of the armor itself as I don't know much about this. However, I have a few question.

- How many will you find around in T2K? should be very rare IMO.
- How long can it last without proper caring? You won't be able to maintain it as well as in our world.
- how much does it weight? Didn't see anything about it.

Then, I have very little body armor in my own T2K game as they are seldom available. What about movement?

I always had players who wanted more armor, strangely they were the first to die and they often lost their armor at the worst moment.

[jester]

I know most bulletproof vests are given a life of 3 to 5 years. And some are considered "used up" when they do stop a bullet. So each time it does its job and you survive you need a new one. That of course is the civilian side which is dictated by lawyers.

However, how many hits could modern combat armor sustain before it looses its effectiveness? I hear the SAPI plates do crack when hit. So how long before your trauma plates are used up?

And then we also have conditions, the old Kevlar we were told was as usefull as carboard when it got wet.

And of course we have the issue of the system sustaining damage. So what happens when it is hit with schrapnel or bullet hits putting holes in it or sections of it get torn or sheared off? And I already mentioned items contaminated with chemical agents so to wear it would give you a constant dose of chemical weapons damage? Or you just have to abandon it, like falling into a river and having to ditch your gear and swim for it, or dropping your armor because you have to climb or do something requiring agility and you can't retrieve it.

[theDevil]

did not know there was a glue problem with it. will try to figure that one out

But according to msnbc hardball`s independent test, it outperformed the body armor currently used in the iraqi war(though the test where limited).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vetyG...eature=related

according to this news also, the us army rejected the dragon skin as it had failures and flaws in the test that where done, the thing is that this where released months before the actually testing started...

but there are sites gloryfying this products, and those hating this products, so now i am pretty unsure of what to believe...

ofcourse after a nuclear war in t2k it would be hard to come by, but in the "general pain" campaign there has been no "big boom", yet...

[Mohoender]

Interesting questions you raised Jest.

If someone knows some kind of answer to this I'll be very interesting. I used a medieval mail armor once, it was fun, but I don't know anything about modern armor vests.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by theDevil

but there are sites gloryfying this products, and those hating this products, so now i am pretty unsure of what to believe...

I know myself and the Special Operations Community in general hate Dragon Skin and cringe whenever it is muttered. Same thing with blended metal bullets.

Both of them took some anecdotal evidence from controlled, laboratory conditions and said, "Oh look at me! I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread!"

Then they found a couple of fanboys each, and the fad began.

Do a search through some of the Special Operations community forums and just do a keyword search for Dragon Skin. Your fingertips will bleed from the vehemence of hatred you will experience.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by jester

I know most bulletproof vests are given a life of 3 to 5 years. And some are considered "used up" when they do stop a bullet. So each time it does its job and you survive you need a new one. That of course is the civilian side which is dictated by lawyers.

However, how many hits could modern combat armor sustain before it looses its effectiveness? I hear the SAPI plates do crack when hit. So how long before your trauma plates are used up?

And then we also have conditions, the old Kevlar we were told was as usefull as carboard when it got wet.

And of course we have the issue of the system sustaining damage. So what happens when it is hit with schrapnel or bullet hits putting holes in it or sections of it get torn or sheared off? And I already mentioned items contaminated with chemical agents so to wear it would give you a constant dose of chemical weapons damage? Or you just have to abandon it, like falling into a river and having to ditch your gear and swim for it, or dropping your armor because you have to climb or do something requiring agility and you can't retrieve it.

serious manufactureres of these vests and plates (SAPI) sometimes state that they guarantee the plates fro say 3 hits from 7,62x39 125 gr .fmj at 2300 fps spaced more than 1 " apart .etc etc

I read somewhere on the web that some guys shot up a vest with sapi to see what it could take (pretty expensive proposition -mine plus plates cost like 700 US)

the vest itself stopped a few rounds of the handgun rounds it was supposed to deal with , but the plates took over 40 hits from a 9mm with fmj rounds at something like 50 feet , as well as 4-5 hits from the 7,62 x39 mm without being penetrated.

sadly I cant post a link - I dont remember where I read it .

But the short of it I guess means that if hits are grouped close , the later hits will have an increased chance of penetrating .

I suppose none of the tests were done with steel core chinese /eastern bloc type rounds..

[pmulcahy11b]

One thing that should also be remembered about body armor with ballistic plates is that the ballistic plates are made primarily of a ceramic/carbon compound -- they don't stop bullets, they shatter when hit and spread out the impact force so that they don't have enough power to penetrate the relatively light body armor behind them. A ballistic plate is good for maybe one or two hits from a high-velocity round like 7.62mm Nagant -- three if you're lucky. And, like most body armor, you're still going to end up with cracked or bruised ribs and a cracked or bruised breastbone.

[theDevil]

i have heard/read that the ceramic plate has a flaw of disintegrating when it is submitted to wet weater for a period of time (this was an argument against the interceptor plates), is this true?

also in the msnbc intervjue it was claimed that the dispearsel of impact the west(dragon skin) where so good that a soldier had been hit three times in the back without noticing it before he took it of at Basecamp and saw the holes, which again would suggest that the dispersal of impact is !highly reduced on the dragon skin, which again would make it an excellent west.

but again there are alot of conflicting information on this subject, some say it is lighter, some say it is heavier, which makes me think that there is more politics involved in the west then there are facts coming out... (sorry, do not mean to sound like a conspiracy nut, i am though, but anyway)

[headquarters]

the army tests were controversial as far as I know -big money involved in the contract -not easy to say what is fact here -politics as you say

Originally Posted by theDevil

i have heard/read that the ceramic plate has a flaw of disintegrating when it is submitted to wet weater for a period of time (this was an argument against the interceptor plates), is this true?

also in the msnbc intervjue it was claimed that the dispearsel of impact the west(dragon skin) where so good that a soldier had been hit three times in the back without noticing it before he took it of at Basecamp and saw the holes, which again would suggest that the dispersal of impact is !highly reduced on the dragon skin, which again would make it an excellent west.

but again there are alot of conflicting information on this subject, some say it is lighter, some say it is heavier, which makes me think that there is more politics involved in the west then there are facts coming out... (sorry, do not mean to sound like a conspiracy nut, i am though, but anyway)

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

serious manufactureres of these vests and plates (SAPI) sometimes state that they guarantee the plates fro say 3 hits from 7,62x39 125 gr .fmj at 2300 fps spaced more than 1 " apart .etc etc

Assuming that is fact (and I don't doubt it), that would make such gear very very rare in T2K. Regular supply would have dried up years ago and those still available could almost only come from forgotten storages.

However, some medieval-type protections (similar to the one used by the Italian "Arditi" in WWI trenches) could very well be in use (from memory we already talked about that).