Cavalry in Twilight 2000

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Medic

Don't mention.

Of course, another choice might be the old M1 and M2 series carbine. The military would probably have them in some cold storage in numbers...

What about the MAC-10 or MAC-11?

[Medic]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

What about the MAC-10 or MAC-11?

I assume, the U.S. military diesn't really have those in storage - the old M-3 'Grease Gun' might be another thing, but I beieve, even those have been removed from storage. This is, however, simply a gut feeling - I can not confirm this in any way.

[Olefin]

Actually the Grease Gun is a great idea - it was used until the mid 90's by some armored vehicle crews and truck drivers. There is a very good chance that it could be in the state armory.

And it would make a great gun to be carried by cavalry men - short,light, easy to handle and pretty good level of firepower for a weapon

thanks rcaf_777!

[simonmark6]

M1 carbines would be good, plus you could dress the cavalry up in gorilla suits for that true post-apocalyptic feeling.

[Olefin]

Ten points to Simon for the Planet of the Apes reference!!!!

[Medic]

Okay, I can understand why my English-teacher on grades 8-9 never learned my first name (which was, by that time, a rare one - nowadays there's a huge load of kids by the same name roaming around), but mistaking me for rcaf...

Yes, I had the recollection, the U.S. Army had M3s or rather M3A1s in use for armor crews pretty close to the Twilight timeline, but wasn't entirely sure. I believe, a combination of M1 and M2 series carbines and M3 series submachineguns would be pretty much probable.

[Olefin]

Oh jeez - sorry Medic - ok that is three body points of damage for me due to reading a post and responding to it while being on the phone at the same time and not paying proper attention along with loss of one clip of M16 ammo and a grenade of your choice as a fine

[Medic]

I'll let it slide this time.

[bobcat]

most the greaseguns are in NG armories. however i know people who carried them as late as OEF3. so getting those to a cav unit would make sense.

[HorseSoldier]

The machine gun killed horse cavalry before the semi-automatic and automatic rifle had a chance to (and really the rifled musket and earliest cartridge firing repeaters had horse cavalry on life support well before that). In T2K, horse cavalry are going to be dragoons, not true cavalry, and do their fighting on foot in all but the most permissive environments (note: Absolutely nowhere in the US would be considered a permissive environment. The UK or other places where firearms aren't very plentiful, maybe).

The ideal weapon for CONUS horse cavalry units would probably the M4, but the M16 would be entirely workable and the M16EZ would get the job done. No reason or need for anything more compact than that, and issuing them SMGs would actually tend to be contraindicated by role -- horse cavalry is an asset for patrolling and reconnoitering relatively open terrain where they have a mobility advantage. Even if they are ordered only to fight in the defense and in a pinch, they'd still be wanting weapons that let them engage fully across the 0-3 or 400 meters riflemen can credibly own without specialized equipment or an incredibly obliging enemy.

[Legbreaker]

I agree with that. In the relatively rare instances where the US has cavalry (We know the 5th ID had a handful for example) longer ranged weapons and light machineguns are the more practical weaponry with perhaps a few mortars, AGLs and HMGs towed on carriages.
Since logistical support (particularly carrying capacity compared to trucks) would be limited, I see cavalry having more in common equipment wise with paratroopers than just about any other troop type. You might even see Paratroop units converted before any others (all nationalities) because of this very fact - swapping one mode of transport for another.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I agree with that. In the relatively rare instances where the US has cavalry (We know the 5th ID had a handful for example) longer ranged weapons and light machineguns are the more practical weaponry with perhaps a few mortars, AGLs and HMGs towed on carriages.
Since logistical support (particularly carrying capacity compared to trucks) would be limited, I see cavalry having more in common equipment wise with paratroopers than just about any other troop type. You might even see Paratroop units converted before any others (all nationalities) because of this very fact - swapping one mode of transport for another.

I have the 82nd in Operation Pegasus in Iran moving south on horses.

The current UK news about horse meat being in beef burgers is somehow somewhat ironic given the thread recently. It did give one nice fact though, horse tastes like a less fatty and slightly sweeter beef.

I have avoided Kenya as my version is different to the great write up that has been presented here.

There will be a rewrite shortly with extras....

[simonmark6]

Depends on the horse, one bred for eating is like less fatty and sweeter beef, but those eaten after work are much stringier and have a gamier flavour. Best hang it a bit then. On the whole though, the beef analogy is a good one. Like rabbit though it's high in protein and low in calories (relatively) there are much better foods if you're starving, but when you're hungry you take what you get.

[Olefin]

You might see the Grease Guns with the cavalry heavy weapons units - i.e. if you are manning a machine gun or mortar, if it gets down to engaging the enemy with an infantry weapon its usually when they get so close that you cant engage them with the heavy weapon - and a SMG is great for that

the unit I am putting together for Kenya is a Kenyan unit and not a US one - i.e. made up of Kenyan horsemen and women who equip a horsed cavalry "regiment" (but not even close in terms of numbers) using horses from Kenya or Ethiopia

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

You might see the Grease Guns with the cavalry heavy weapons units - i.e. if you are manning a machine gun or mortar, if it gets down to engaging the enemy with an infantry weapon its usually when they get so close that you cant engage them with the heavy weapon - and a SMG is great for that

the unit I am putting together for Kenya is a Kenyan unit and not a US one - i.e. made up of Kenyan horsemen and women who equip a horsed cavalry "regiment" (but not even close in terms of numbers) using horses from Kenya or Ethiopia

Bear in mind the weight of an M3A1 with ammo, you are actually better with an M16! I would say the ideal weapon for weapon crews would be the M2 Carbine.

Quite happy to look at non-US units.

[Olefin]

Will send you the info I have on the Kenyan unit soon - almost have it done.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Depends on the horse, one bred for eating is like less fatty and sweeter beef, but those eaten after work are much stringier and have a gamier flavour. Best hang it a bit then. On the whole though, the beef analogy is a good one. Like rabbit though it's high in protein and low in calories (relatively) there are much better foods if you're starving, but when you're hungry you take what you get.

Horse isn't so lean that rabbit fever would be a problem. I haven't followed all the ins and outs on the debate, but there is a lot of archaeological evidence supporting the fact that horses started out as a domesticated food animal and only later turned into a riding animal. Part of their appeal was that on the Eurasian steppe where domestication started they are much better at self-sustaining (and providing a food source) during winter months than cattle.

[Medic]

Not really on but neither really off topic, the Swedes actually considered using the moose as mounts in the 17th century. It never really took off, though they did domesticate some of them as far as I know. Bigger than a horse, moves well in swampy terrain, has antlers - I can really see the thought behind the idea, even if it was not successful.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Medic

Not really on but neither really off topic, the Swedes actually considered using the moose as mounts in the 17th century. It never really took off, though they did domesticate some of them as far as I know. Bigger than a horse, moves well in swampy terrain, has antlers - I can really see the thought behind the idea, even if it was not successful.

Seems to have been used by Wood Elves though - see the film version of "The Hobbit - An Unexpected Journey"

Interesting trivia from the latest rewrite research:

* Switzerland still had carrier pigeons in service in 1995

* Israel used pack llamas in Lebanon

[James Langham]

Latest version...with a thousand elephants!!!! (Apologies to the Pratchett fans out there).

Sorry the pics are so low res but file size limits apply.

[Targan]

Great additions! Nice work, James.

[Medic]

Fine work, James!

Kind of made me remember what happened to my first military bicycle during the basic training. We were about to head off to an exercise and my bike was outside the barracks, when a XA-185 Pasi APC driver decided to back his vehicle up a bit. You could, with some imagination and good will, recognize it having once been a bicycle...

[Olefin]

From what I am putting together on Kenya (which may actually be done soon) -

1st Kenyan Mounted Cavalry Regiment

The Regiment was organized in 1998, starting with a cadre of fifty horsemen and two hundred horses that had been used previously for horse safari tours, organized by a retired veteran of the Household Mounted Cavalry Regiment of the British Army who immigrated to Kenya in 1988 after twenty years service along with twelve White Kenyans who had formed a Victorian Cavalry re-enactor group in early 1992.

While originally the idea of a cavalry unit was not supported by the Kenyan military and government, as petroleum supplies were restricted after the air and nuclear strikes on the Saudi and Iranian oil fields they changed their minds and gave them the resources and equipment needed to begin forming a regimental size cavalry force.

Its personnel are all trained horsemen and women, drawn mostly from the white population of Kenya who traditionally owned almost all the horses in the country. Of Kenya’s population of 2000 horses in 1997, some 1400 remain. In addition another 5000 horses have been obtained from Ethiopia in trade for gasoline, ammunition and other items traded to the warlords fighting the central government there.

Eventually some 500 horses were allocated to the regiment to be fully trained as war horses, with enough being trained by mid 1999 for the regiment to be considered ready for combat.

At full strength, the regiment consists of a headquarters squadron, three cavalry squadrons, and a horse drawn heavy weapons squadron, with a total of ten officers and 242 enlisted personnel. Enlisted privates are referred to as Troopers, while NCO’s are either a Lance Corporal of Horse (Corporal), a Corporal of Horse (Sergeant), or a Corporal Major of Horse (Sergeant Major). Officer ranks follow normal Kenyan practice.

It is modeled on the British Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, with each cavalry squadron consisting of two divisions, each of one officer and twenty four enlisted personnel, while the headquarters squadron consists of only one division. The heavy weapons squadron consists of two divisions, one being of one officer and eighteen enlisted men with machine guns, the other division being of one officer and twenty enlisted men armed with mortars, with specially built gun caissons used for transporting the weapons and ammunition.

In addition, it is supported by a training squadron of one officer and thirty six enlisted men who are tasked as follows:
• Eighteen soldiers who care for the horses themselves, including eight trained blacksmiths who specialize in shoeing the horses
• Six soldiers who do maintenance and upkeep on the tack and gear for the regiment
• Twelve soldiers responsible for training new riders and breaking in new horses

Each squadron has one trained combat medic and each division has one man designated as the cook.

As of April 1, 2001 its current strength is 10 officers and 198 enlisted, with another 50 men in training, with a total of 384 horses available for the regiment after losses due to combat and illness from the last two years. Of these, forty horses were designated as breeders with the rest being available for use.

Weapons

The HQ and Cavalry squadrons of the Regiment are armed with 9mm Browning pistols and G3 rifles, while the heavy weapons squadron is armed with the Sterling MkIV instead of the G3. In addition, for additional firepower each cavalry division has a Bren light machine gunner (instead of the G3) and two M79 grenade launchers.

The heavy weapons squadron is armed with three M2HB MG and two L-16 81mm mortars. In addition it has the only dedicated anti-tank weapons in the regiment, two captured RPG-7 launchers and four missiles.

Tactics

The Regiment fights as dragoons, using the horses for transport but not taking them into battle if it can be helped. On at least three occasions, due to ambushes, they have been forced to fight from horseback, with serious losses in horses and men each time. When in combat, one man from each six is tasked to handle the horses while the rest deploy to fight.

Usually the Regiment deploys without the heavy weapons squadron for patrols, only using that for missions where the heavier firepower will be needed, as the caissons slow them down and have broken down in rough terrain before.

The unit has proven itself to be very effective against many of the irregular forces that are in Kenya and has grudgingly earned the respect of those who originally thought there was no place left anymore for cavalry in the modern world.

[James Langham2]

As ever still a work in progress with much more to be added... also as ever feedback welcome.

Apache 6 I have taken your work on the 2nd Tennesse Cavalry and added a bit, hope you are OK with that - I have included you as their official historian and commander (although just using the callsign name).

[Apache6]

James Langham: I just saw your post. Thanks for including the 2nd Tennessee Cavalry in your Twilight 2000 Cavalry write up. Like the Ten Gun, name.

[Raellus]

Spartan-177 shared this pic. His friend took it recently in the Netherlands.

[therantingsavant]

Shamelessly adding a link to my follow up Horsemen of the Apocalypse thread here that references this original thread as it's inspiration and resource!