Crowdsourced / Co-branded Alternative v4 Rules

[vihkr]

Originally Posted by CDAT

I agree that competition is healthy if there is enough room for both, if not then you are taking from one to support the other, leaving not enough for either to survive. Now is this the case I do not know, but should we not at least wait to see what they are coming out with before we say I want nothing to do with it?

Understood but T2K is barely surviving as it is. Maybe Modiphius comes out with out something we like, maybe they don't and it's a T2013 debacle. Who knows? The point is that the market has come of age and we could actually produce a product we wanted to see now, regardless what Modiphius and Marc want to do. And so we're clear, I speculate that their offering is going to be slick, overproduced, hot sewage ala their current offerings and similar to what FFG has managed to spew out.

Originally Posted by CDAT

With Traveler being under the Mongoose Publishing currently how does that rule set work (if at all) with TW2000 V1 to V2.2? If it does not (my guess but I do not know) then does it really matter that they were basically the same rule set once? Now I am not a game designer or anything like that but how difficult would it be to fix some (all?) of the cons that you listed? I do think keeping the old rules or even slightly updating them (but keeping them backwards compatible) is a good thing as it give you several sourcebooks right from the get go (maybe hard to find in Dead Tree, but available in PDF). Right now with how much thought I have put into it this would be my first choice.

I get that there's a lot of faith with the v2.2 rules but we can't really "fix" them. They're too outdated, clunky, verbose and poorly organized. And no-one today is going to suffer the level of record keeping necessary to play. Besides, they're generally rated generally poorly by the gaming public at large.

Originally Posted by CDAT

Now it may be because I like more depth but I do not think that the crunchy systems are as disliked as some think. I do think it is the case that a fair amount of youth today have no attention span, and so do not like the crunchy system. However I assume that if they are like most of my family they barely even have the attention span to play games were everything you need to play is on the cards you play, and if that is true then those players will not be playing any RPG. So I am guessing that we might lose a few players, but I do not think it will be as many as I hear people say. So GURPS would be my second choice as my understanding is that the system has been very stable (it was a long time ago that I last played GURPS).

I'm a Phoenix Command and Rolemaster aficionado. Would I recommend these games to a new player? No way. Same with GURPS. There is a happy balance between the extremes I mentioned and Magic the Gathering.

Originally Posted by CDAT

My first concern is that several of the companies are not well know for supporting games that are not hot sellers, so what happens if they pull support? Some (GW especially know for this) are not well balanced, how well will we be able to get around that if using there rule set? Several of the companies change their rules more frequently than I think is needed, if/when they do how does that affect us? and last concern that I have right now with this one is that some of the companies are disliked by portions of the gaming community (that does not mean they do not sell well) so how will this affect sales for a new/returning game that has no history with them? My thought right now is that this one is not a good option, but could be convinced otherwise.

I was citing examples of rules systems which could be adapted to become the next T2K, not partnerships.

Originally Posted by CDAT

I have to admit I did not know anything about this game, so went to their web site and took a look at their forum, it may be even less active than this one. Only four posts with a date within the last year (OK, one more is at 11 months and 3 weeks) and most of those are 5 months or more. So with that level of activity how popular is the game? As for scale I have lots of 6mm (thousands), 15mm (hundreds), an 28-34mm (hundreds) and maybe it is because I do more tabletop games than skirmish games (all the skirmish games are done in the 28-34mm) so the 20mm just sounds like an odd size to me, as I know no one in my group has anything in that size. Then as it has the same cons as above makes this look like a poor choice to me.

Ambush Alley was immensely popular when it first launched, some of the people of this forum helped produce materials for it and know the designer. Osprey Publishing bought the license and now produces and distributes it as Force on Force. In either case, it's a great system which could be modified and expanded to be an RPG.

Originally Posted by CDAT

I will admit that I have only played D&D once, but found it to be OK, would have liked more meat to my character. By that I mean it just felt like there was not enough to the character they were just print and play. One warrior did not feel different from another. I also see a huge issue with trying to do anything with Palladium Books especially if it has to do with kickstarter after they screwed over a large group of people with their Robotech Tactics game, I think anything that they are even remotely affiliated with will have issues.

Again, I'm not recommending partnership with any of these companies for rules systems, just ideas we can use to drive the design of a new rules system.

Originally Posted by CDAT

I am not sure how this is really different than the first option? Are you saying just option 1 is modifying these rules and this is using them just as written?

I am now talking about settings we could adapt, not rules mechanics. And we can't use this one anyway because FFE owns it and licensed it Modiphius.

Originally Posted by CDAT

I am unfimilure with this alt-timeline, it is on this forum? I am guessing it starts in 1965? If that is the case I think it could be a good supplement but think what really sets TW2000 apart is the WWIII and "you are all on you own". It could be started in 65 but if the cold war is too long ago I think 65 would be worse. Having said that I do think it would be a good supplement like Merc 2000.

Yes came from posts on this forum. He recently came back after a hiatus and starting posting again. Your note about it being a potential supplement is a good idea.

Originally Posted by CDAT

As I have said in other posts on this forum I do not think that it is as popular as is being made out to be. My local group plays at least ten different table top war games at multiple locations, however when I asked most recently none of the players or staff know anything about Team Yankee. Now, yes maybe my location is the extreme outlier but I just have a hard time believing that we are that far out there. Also if we are going to try and do this on kickstarter BattleFront does not have the best reputation there after the Dust kickstarter that they were part of, not as bad as Palladium Books but still very far from positive. Also all the concerns I have with option three and four would apply here.

I agree these companies don't have the best rep, especially for Kickstarter. However, Team Yankee is alive and well, I assure you.

Originally Posted by CDAT

Regardless of what time you have it start in the timeline is always going to be come irrelevant in someways. As WWIII did not happen and knock on wood will not then you are going to have to make some adjustment to history. So I think either pick a date in the not to distant past and make changes from there, or some date in the near future and make the changes there. So I guess I kind of see this as potentially part of the other options.

You're spot on here. However, the only Cold War timeline that really has any legs is the Sir General John Hackett - Red Storm Rising - Red Dawn - Team Yankee one. The rest are generally unknown outside of this forum.

Originally Posted by CDAT

I agree that does not have the correct feel to it. In a nut shell I think that first we should at least wait for more information on version 4 before we all decide to jump ship and make our own. However if it is wrong I do think there are some viable options from good to very bad, but just my thoughts and the are worth what you paid for them.

The cost of your thoughts has a very attractive price! But I firmly believe that acting now is the best course of action.

[Targan]

I'l just wait for whatever region and adventure supplements come out, and covert it all to Gunmaster anyway

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'l just wait for whatever region and adventure supplements come out, and covert it all to Gunmaster anyway

Now that is a good idea

[Olefin]

So Jason got confirmation its not Modiphius - i.e. the inference that it would be them based on Chris Lites working for them was a good guess but incorrect

So we will have to see who it is based on the posts by Chris Lites in the Twilight 2000 facebook group he is on that he is working on version 4, that it wont be like Twilight 2013 and that there will be an announcement this fall.

And Marc has confirmed a version 4 for sure. So basically back to pins and needles and see if Chris or Marc gives any more information on it in the meantime

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'l just wait for whatever region and adventure supplements come out, and covert it all to Gunmaster anyway

MASOCHIST! I've played "RulesMaster" a time or two.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

MASOCHIST! I've played "RulesMaster" a time or two.

Harnmaster/Gunmaster, the King of Rules Systems. Good for what ails ya

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Targan

Harnmaster/Gunmaster, the King of Rules Systems. Good for what ails ya

I'm all for "crunch," but you're playing the "Grapenuts" of RPGs. Any more crunch and you might as well be eating glass!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Targan

Harnmaster/Gunmaster, the King of Rules Systems. Good for what ails ya

As long as what ails ya is insomnia.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

As long as what ails ya is insomnia.

As it happens, yes

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by vihkr

Understood but T2K is barely surviving as it is. Maybe Modiphius comes out with out something we like, maybe they don't and it's a T2013 debacle. Who knows? The point is that the market has come of age and we could actually produce a product we wanted to see now, regardless what Modiphius and Marc want to do. And so we're clear, I speculate that their offering is going to be slick, overproduced, hot sewage ala their current offerings and similar to what FFG has managed to spew out.

I think one issue is that it does not sound like everyone wants the same thing. I have never played a Modiphius game, but know several people who love their games. Now I am not saying you are wrong as I do not know you, but I am more inclined to trust those who I do know, so with that said I would be wiling to give Modiphius the benefit of the doubt if they were to make a TW2000 game.

Originally Posted by vihkr

I get that there's a lot of faith with the v2.2 rules but we can't really "fix" them. They're too outdated, clunky, verbose and poorly organized. And no-one today is going to suffer the level of record keeping necessary to play. Besides, they're generally rated generally poorly by the gaming public at large.

I am not sure what you mean by outdated, but clunky, verbose and poorly organized are things that I think could be fixed. As for level of record keeping I am not sure that really is the case, BattleTech is often pointed as a outdated, clunky game with way to much record keeping needed to play. However one of our players in my local area took it upon himself to get a league organized and not counting our regular BattleTech play group, he has got the largest store in the region to sign on and has about a dozen or new players. With even more who have been showing interest but not willing to step up (yet?) and buy into the game. So what I am saying is that record keeping does not seam to be the big stumbling block that some say it is.

Originally Posted by vihkr

Ambush Alley was immensely popular when it first launched, some of the people of this forum helped produce materials for it and know the designer. Osprey Publishing bought the license and now produces and distributes it as Force on Force. In either case, it's a great system which could be modified and expanded to be an RPG.

I am not saying that it was not "immensely popular" or that it is a bad game, I have never heard of it (but there are so many games out there that is not a big surprise, and really does not mean much) but just based on the activity of their own forums it does not look like it is very popular now, with only five threads active with in the last year, now compare that to this site (from my understanding not know for being a high traffic site) where we have fourteen by my count active this month alone. So in one month almost three times as many active threads as they had in a year, that does not sound like a popular game. Now maybe it is because there rule set is so tight that there are no questions about it, or maybe it is because most of the players are offline only, I do not know.

Originally Posted by vihkr

You're spot on here. However, the only Cold War timeline that really has any legs is the Sir General John Hackett - Red Storm Rising - Red Dawn - Team Yankee one. The rest are generally unknown outside of this forum.

As much as I loved the book Team Yankee, I would actually say that I think his Scott Dixon line might be a better way of staring the war (just take a bit of tweaking) and I think that even Sir General John Hackett - Red Storm Rising - Team Yankee are not well know outside of this forum. Yes I know you are going to say that the Game Team Yankee is the most popular game ever and all that, but as I have said it may be very popular in some areas, but it is not all over. I would kind of guess it is like Dust depending on the location doing very well, but in others it is if not outright dead on extreme life support.

[vihkr]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Yes I know you are going to say that the Game Team Yankee is the most popular game ever and all that...

You are mis-representing what I originally wrote in order to prove some point about Team Yankee. I never stated it was the most popular and even stated that it was a small fry compared to GW. It's simply a currently popular miniatures game. What's your deal here?

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by vihkr

You are mis-representing what I originally wrote in order to prove some point about Team Yankee. I never stated it was the most popular and even stated that it was a small fry compared to GW. It's simply a currently popular miniatures game. What's your deal here?

No deal, I was trying to lighten the mode with some hyperbole, I know you never said that it was the most popular game ever. However you keep talking about games that you think are popular, and I just do not see it. I think it is more like Dust Tactics, is it a popular game? Yes and no, depends on where you are, and who you ask. If you ask the internet it is a dead game and has been for years, however for a "dead game" it is still for sale, has its own nationals and is even getting tables at GenCon. So even though I think it is a fun and well made game it is not currently popular, even though it was at one point. Now is Team Yankee a popular game? I am guessing it is kind of the same, it is probably popular in some locations, but in others (like mine) it is dead.

[Targan]

I don't have any empirical evidence to back what I'm about to say, but my feeling is that for new versions of T2K in the current tabletop RPG gaming environment, most writers on new rules sets will err on the side of simplicity. The brutal truth is unless it's a labour of love, the idea is to achieve some level of profit, and if there is no profit a new system will be dead in the water, with few or no supplements coming after the initial release.

I say err on the side of simplicity because on the rools-lite to crunchy spectrum, there is an element of personal taste as well as an element of what the user can actually cope with. People who don't cope well with even basic maths and/or tricky rules concepts won't play a complicated game because they're simply not capable of it. People who are capable of it will play whatever attracts them. So complicated rules systems are going to tend to do less well in the broader TTRPG market, because as well as contending with personal tastes, their complicated nature is a genuine barrier to entry.

I have no beef with people who like cinematic, free-flowing gaming and feel that rools-lite delivers that for them. I do think it's a shame that simpler rules systems has been the trend for quite some time now in part due to the reasons I've outlined above.

[vihkr]

Originally Posted by Targan

I have no beef with people who like cinematic, free-flowing gaming and feel that rools-lite delivers that for them. I do think it's a shame that simpler rules systems has been the trend for quite some time now in part due to the reasons I've outlined above.

Agree with your post. However, there is an optimal way to rules-light a complicated (old-school) system and a not effective way. Take Command Decision, Fire & Fury and Spearhead, for example. These are good examples of old-school miniatures rules. I think an optimal ruleset that largely supplanted these (except amongst Grognards) would be Blitzkrieg/Cold War Commander and my personal favourite, Fistful of TOWs. Clearly updated thinking about how to achieve the same deterministic results, but without the cheese. If this could be done in RPG systems, and I don't see why not, it could be a winner.