Twilight Spain

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I agree that most armies have been reduced by the Twilight War - Spain however didnt see the same level of conflict as the others - but it also depends on your timeline - the much larger army of V1 would have a bigger presence than the smaller army of V2.2

Also Spain appears to be in worse shape in V2.2 than in V1 - i.e. the Spain of Med Cruise appears to be in better shape than the Spain of V2.2

Yes, this is true.

One thing I am trying to work on is equipment, and I am figuring out what was in service in the 1980s as a guideline, and trying to decide what 1990s introduced equipment to include.

I like the names of Spanish units.

Another note: many Spanish cities have older buildings including castles and fortifications, which I think might be used in a similar way to Free City of Krakow.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Yes, this is true.

One thing I am trying to work on is equipment, and I am figuring out what was in service in the 1980s as a guideline, and trying to decide what 1990s introduced equipment to include.

I like the names of Spanish units.

Another note: many Spanish cities have older buildings including castles and fortifications, which I think might be used in a similar way to Free City of Krakow.

These links will hopefully be helpful: -
PDF - Spanish Army Order of Battle & Table of Equipment 1980-1989
https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf
Wiki page - Structure of the Spanish Army in 1989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struct...h_Army_in_1989

Miniature wargaming companies sometimes have really extensive OOBs & ToEs but they're not often free. I got lucky with the PDF for Spain linked above because Fire and Fury deals more with 1940s and earlier. Anyway, here's the link to their OOB/ToE lists
https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

EDIT: I found this as well but decided it was just providing the same info as the Fire and Fury OrBat. However after a quick read through, it does have some extra detail that could be useful (such as the 13th Engineer Regiment was tasked with railroad repair)
NATO 1980s OrBats PDF - Spain starts on page 127
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7961481421.pdf

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

These links will hopefully be helpful: -
PDF - Spanish Army Order of Battle & Table of Equipment 1980-1989
https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf
Wiki page - Structure of the Spanish Army in 1989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struct...h_Army_in_1989

Miniature wargaming companies sometimes have really extensive OOBs & ToEs but they're not often free. I got lucky with the PDF for Spain linked above because Fire and Fury deals more with 1940s and earlier. Anyway, here's the link to their OOB/ToE lists
https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

EDIT: I found this as well but decided it was just providing the same info as the Fire and Fury OrBat. However after a quick read through, it does have some extra detail that could be useful (such as the 13th Engineer Regiment was tasked with railroad repair)
NATO 1980s OrBats PDF - Spain starts on page 127
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7961481421.pdf

Wow, thank you very much, that is a huge help.

[Vespers War]

It's a little bit later, but GHQ has a brief history up to and OrBat for the 1990s. It's simpler and less detailed than the Fire and Fury OrBat, but discusses some of the outside influences on the military reorganization from the perspective of 2004 or 2005.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That GHQ OrBat makes from some interesting reading in regards to the development of the modern Spanish military (and just Spanish recent history in general as well). Nice find

[lordroel]

Will we see the Spanish Legion Command become something the the French Foreign Legion, where they take all nationalities and not only Spanish speaking as they do now, this can bolster their strength i think.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by lordroel

Will we see the Spanish Legion Command become something the the French Foreign Legion, where they take all nationalities and not only Spanish speaking as they do now, this can bolster their strength i think.

That's an interesting idea. I'm sure a few foreigners could find their way to Spain during the war, but I reckon that most folks would be serving their own home countries', very busy militaries during the Twilight War. And, even if they weren't, it would be very difficult to get to Spain by sea during a world war involving nuclear weapons.

During the Spanish Civil War, the Spanish Foreign Legion was manned mostly by Spaniards, many of whom were criminals. It had a particularly nasty reputation during what was a very nasty conflict.

Therefore, I think emptying Spanish prisons to bolster the Legion would produce more manpower than foreign volunteers during the Twilight War.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

These links will hopefully be helpful: -
PDF - Spanish Army Order of Battle & Table of Equipment 1980-1989
https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwspanish.pdf
Wiki page - Structure of the Spanish Army in 1989
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struct...h_Army_in_1989

Miniature wargaming companies sometimes have really extensive OOBs & ToEs but they're not often free. I got lucky with the PDF for Spain linked above because Fire and Fury deals more with 1940s and earlier. Anyway, here's the link to their OOB/ToE lists
https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

EDIT: I found this as well but decided it was just providing the same info as the Fire and Fury OrBat. However after a quick read through, it does have some extra detail that could be useful (such as the 13th Engineer Regiment was tasked with railroad repair)
NATO 1980s OrBats PDF - Spain starts on page 127
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...7961481421.pdf

Like this summation of the Spanish Army

Until 1965 the Spanish Army was composed of “classical” regiments and divisions. In 1965 a reorganization was undertaken that divided Army forces in Intervention and Operational Defense formations adopting the brigade as the main component of Divisions. This is the organization shown by Andy Johnson. However since 1984 a modernization plan was underway aimed at improving the intervention ability of the army and updating its equipment.

The META plan, as it was called only achieved its objectives partially, however the army was reorganized and this was the situation in 1989. Since 1994 Divisions were abolished and brigades were adopted as the highest level formation, but when Spain became part of Eurocorps, the decision was taken to maintain the Brunete division updating it with a third mechanized brigade.

In the Spanish Army, brigades are composed of 2 regiments of 1 or 2 battalions each. Although infantry regiments are only administrative units, they keep the traditions of older units and are commanded by Colonels.

Brigades are commanded by Brigadiers. In case of war, a Corps sized unit would have been committed to operations in the Southern theater of operations. This Corps could have been either mechanized or mountain

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's basically what's written in the GHQ OrBat that Vespers War linked to. It's worth noting that in one of those OrBats it mentions that Spain's NATO role in a war would "probably" be to send mountain troops into the Italy/Greece/Turkey area and an armoured force to the Rhine. So there's lots of room to play around with.

[Legbreaker]

Well actually it seems unlikely you will find Spanish troops on the front alongside other NATO members.
Basically, "no troops were to be deployed outside of Spain on a sustained basis" and the command structure is not integrated into that of the rest of NATO. http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13103.html
It would seem their role in the event of WWIII would be to secure a strategic base of operations (ie their own borders) in order to facilitate counter attacks upon the PACT forces when the rest of Europe was lost.
Spain, the ultimate REMFs/pogues...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well actually it seems unlikely you will find Spanish troops on the front alongside other NATO members.
Basically, "no troops were to be deployed outside of Spain on a sustained basis" and the command structure is not integrated into that of the rest of NATO. http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13103.html
It would seem their role in the event of WWIII would be to secure a strategic base of operations (ie their own borders) in order to facilitate counter attacks upon the PACT forces when the rest of Europe was lost.
Spain, the ultimate REMFs/pogues...

Which is probably why the GDW writers didn't include them in the main events?

[Olefin]

Given the situation in southern Germany when the Italians suddenly invaded that would be the most likely time for them to be used. Have a mountain division slow down the Italians until the Germans and Dutch can redeploy but take heavy casualties in the process involves them in the war but not in a way that changes the overall canon.

I.e. the Spanish sent the division then after the Italians were stopped the survivors were pulled back to Spain. Spain gets hit in the nuclear exchange as detailed and after that the Spanish military is too busy at home especially after the Basques and Catalonians begin to rebel against the central government.

A very small change in the canon which has them involved in the general war but then unable to help further as Spain deteriorates into yet another civil war and what they have stays in Spain.

Adds some new info to the overall T2K story but in a way that doesnt change the canon in any way except to show how Spain might have been involved more than just sitting it out - which is basically not going to happen as I said. They fought too hard to get into NATO to sit out the war and do nothing.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Which is probably why the GDW writers didn't include them in the main events?

Makes sense to me.
Spain could well have been reserved for a future publication (or just ignored as irrelevant to the core play area). Given they don't appear to have participated in any serious fighting the area seems perfect for a book similar to Bangkok - suitable to either T2K or Merc with few alterations necessary.
Doesn't help they were effectively cut off from the rest of Nato by France and Italy pulling out and essentially becoming another set of enemies.

[mpipes]

Come on Guys!!

A lot of opinions being voiced here are based on how real history played out. In whatever version of the TW2K you use, history goes flying out the door by 1992. You don't have a collapsed USSR nor an aggressive Soviet military expansion policy playing out in any of these TW2K scenarios using REAL world military ORBATS in 1996 after 4-years of headlong military contractions in the wake of the failed Soviet Coup.

Does anyone really believe Spain and Portugal are just going to sit passively by as the Soviets blow up Europe and China? At the very least, ALL of Europe, certainly NATO, is going to begin full mobilization as soon as Germany and Russia start a war. NO ONE is going to believe that all of NATO will NOT be involved or that the Chinese War will NOT eventually drag other Pacific countries in. If they do, ALL those delusion disappear at least by the invasion of the Persian Gulf countries.

Portugal and Spain both in the late 1980s were desperate to have a face on the world stage and badly wanted to be part of the "NATO club." Once they were in it, they were committed and they knew it. Trade was inextricably tied in, their economies were tied in, and their populations (as a whole) were scared shitless of the Communist and the Soviet Bear. They knew in that day that if they did not stand up and put their big boy pants on and REALLY contribute to the war, their reputations with the other members of the club would not recover for decades. They were going to have to fight, and they needed to be prepared to fight.

Spain, in particular, saw their membership in NATO as their best chance toward eventually getting Britain to relinquish control of Gibraltar back to Spain, so they were not going to muck it up by giving NATO the finger. They would be anxious to be perceived as ESSENTIAL NATO allies in Europe (and hopefully get to bail out the Brits in a major way) to earn the political capital to get Gibraltar back. Any other considerations would be secondary (and in my opinion after war the UK would cede Gibraltar back to Spain with a NATO base having a substantial UK presence there).

NOTE: I have always had a problem with how canon treated Spain, Portugal, and Italy. I just don't see Spain and Portugal sitting around passively or Italy remaining a PACT ally once the USSR starts indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons. After TDM, I don't believe for a second that the Italian alliance with Greece and the PACT remains intact, and I think Spain would react rather violently if France invaded Germany (or at least Andorra with which it has close ties). Spain and France will end up fighting, even if somewhat in a low intensity fashion.

[mariamoreno]

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[Southernap]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well actually it seems unlikely you will find Spanish troops on the front alongside other NATO members.
Basically, "no troops were to be deployed outside of Spain on a sustained basis" and the command structure is not integrated into that of the rest of NATO. http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13103.html
It would seem their role in the event of WWIII would be to secure a strategic base of operations (ie their own borders) in order to facilitate counter attacks upon the PACT forces when the rest of Europe was lost.
Spain, the ultimate REMFs/pogues...

If you wanted to spice it up you might run across some of the Spanish Naval and Air Forces in the Caribbean and Southern US. Considering that their Naval forces and Maritime Patrol aircraft (P-3s and maybe their AV-8s) would have been running to support convoys between the US and Europe. So a Spanish ship stuck in a place like Puerto Rico, Grenada, some port in FL or the US Gulf Coast because of lack of parts, supplies, damage whatever might be a possibility. If not some left over planes somewhere that escaped nuclear attacks against the Spanish territories in the Atlantic (like the Canary and the prime NATO base at the Azores).

I would also wonder if the French might not have pushed into the Pyrenees in the T2K world to chase their own Basque and related terror groups. Let alone the historical "ownership" of territories in the Pyrenees near the Bay of Biscay that are real world Spanish land, used to be in the 1700s belong to the French.

Having been thru Spain more than a few times on my experiences with the US Military. The internal politics of Spain are very, very complicated to a US citizen. There is still plenty of bad blood about the Spanish Civil War (see the recent real world news articles about whether to dig up Franco and the rest of his lot and bury them in some unmarked grave or if that is dishonorable, it is almost to the same scale as the US Civil War debates). As well the Spanish had numerous terror groups that, if memory serves me right, that were being influenced or leaned heavily towards the KGB ruble for payment and advisory. So its Army more than likely would have been trying to lock down security and backing up its Guardia Civil. Who are some folks, that I have seen operate in real life and they are the law in Spain. The Guardia aren't folks you mess around with, they like to use the baton first and ask questions after their arms get tired.

With respect to targets for nuclear attacks. Assuming that the Cold War doesn't end. Not only is Rota/Gibraltar a nuclear target. the USAF 16th AF has its HQ located at Torrejon AB its roughly 30km from city center of Madrid. As well Zaragoza AB that is up near the French-Spanish Border region. You could leave both of those bases alone if you accept V1 of the timeline where Spain with the collapse of NATO (see Italy pull out and Greece pull out, with the Germans starting the war) declares itself neutral and kicks out NATO forces from Spain. If you go the V2 route, then either have any potential nukes for these bases miss or they aren't targeted at all because the 16th AF will have moved all its forces out just prior to the use of nukes in 1997.

With respect to land forces OrBATs another idea is at Wargame Vault. There is a company there called MicroMark Army. They produced a number of PDFs for the Cold War armies. Here is just the European selections and they do have listed both Spain and Portugal.

If you are curious as to what one of the lists looks like see the attachment of one I bought for another project. It is what a Canadian armored division looked like on paper when in Italy in 1943.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Southernap

If not some left over planes somewhere that escaped nuclear attacks against the Spanish territories in the Atlantic (like the Canary and the prime NATO base at the Azores)

The Azores are Portuguese.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Southernap

If you wanted to spice it up you might run across some of the Spanish Naval and Air Forces in the Caribbean and Southern US. Considering that their Naval forces and Maritime Patrol aircraft (P-3s and maybe their AV-8s) would have been running to support convoys between the US and Europe. So a Spanish ship stuck in a place like Puerto Rico, Grenada, some port in FL or the US Gulf Coast because of lack of parts, supplies, damage whatever might be a possibility. If not some left over planes somewhere that escaped nuclear attacks against the Spanish territories in the Atlantic (like the Canary and the prime NATO base at the Azores).

I would also wonder if the French might not have pushed into the Pyrenees in the T2K world to chase their own Basque and related terror groups. Let alone the historical "ownership" of territories in the Pyrenees near the Bay of Biscay that are real world Spanish land, used to be in the 1700s belong to the French.

Having been thru Spain more than a few times on my experiences with the US Military. The internal politics of Spain are very, very complicated to a US citizen. There is still plenty of bad blood about the Spanish Civil War (see the recent real world news articles about whether to dig up Franco and the rest of his lot and bury them in some unmarked grave or if that is dishonorable, it is almost to the same scale as the US Civil War debates). As well the Spanish had numerous terror groups that, if memory serves me right, that were being influenced or leaned heavily towards the KGB ruble for payment and advisory. So its Army more than likely would have been trying to lock down security and backing up its Guardia Civil. Who are some folks, that I have seen operate in real life and they are the law in Spain. The Guardia aren't folks you mess around with, they like to use the baton first and ask questions after their arms get tired.

With respect to targets for nuclear attacks. Assuming that the Cold War doesn't end. Not only is Rota/Gibraltar a nuclear target. the USAF 16th AF has its HQ located at Torrejon AB its roughly 30km from city center of Madrid. As well Zaragoza AB that is up near the French-Spanish Border region. You could leave both of those bases alone if you accept V1 of the timeline where Spain with the collapse of NATO (see Italy pull out and Greece pull out, with the Germans starting the war) declares itself neutral and kicks out NATO forces from Spain. If you go the V2 route, then either have any potential nukes for these bases miss or they aren't targeted at all because the 16th AF will have moved all its forces out just prior to the use of nukes in 1997.

With respect to land forces OrBATs another idea is at Wargame Vault. There is a company there called MicroMark Army. They produced a number of PDFs for the Cold War armies. Here is just the European selections and they do have listed both Spain and Portugal.

If you are curious as to what one of the lists looks like see the attachment of one I bought for another project. It is what a Canadian armored division looked like on paper when in Italy in 1943.

Interesting. I included oil refinery targets in the hit list for Spain. The Air Force bases as further targets make sense.

Did they do a micro mark ORBAT for Spain?