US Navy Ships of the Twilight War

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

As for the situation in the middle east, yes, there are some ships there being held for sea lift duties, but how often do they actually sail? How long does it take to produce enough fuel to supply them for not only the initial landing, but the continuing resupply operations for the troops on the ground?

Also, where are the munitions coming from to resupply them? Pretty sure there's no factories in the region churning out Harpoons, and there's certainly nothing coming from the US (or anywhere else for that matter, except MAYBE France - not that they'd be sharing).

1) They sail enough to send recruiters to Europe, then sail them and their recruits back to the Middle East.... lol

One of the alternatives at Bremerhaven will be a "recruiting booth" offering the option of service with CENT- COM rather than returning to the United States.

If they missed the boat, there is the distinct possibility that recruiters for CENTCOM will attempt to locate remaining stragglers in Europe and offer to lift them out and to the Persian Gulf.

2) Is there anything in cannon about Israel being nuked? I couldn't find anything in RDF. They have been developing/producing their own ASMs since '62. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_(missile)

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

1) They sail enough to send recruiters to Europe, then sail them and their recruits back to the Middle East....

Or did they simply send a radio signal asking for volunteers?
It also wouldn't take much to get those volunteers around to the middle east - it's not like they've got anything more than their personal equipment and rifle, everything else had to be left to the Germans. The fuel used could have been part of the oil from the tanker found floating in the North Sea (or wherever it was) by the Germans.

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

2) Is there anything in cannon about Israel being nuked? I couldn't find anything in RDF. They have been developing/producing their own ASMs since '62. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_(missile)

Not a thing as far as I can see, but would Israel be any more willing to share their missiles than the French? Would they even be compatible? How would they get them over to Iran through a region openly hostile to Israel?
Sure, they could be flown across, but cargo aircraft are notoriously vulnerable and it's far from the most economical way to do it anyway.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Or did they simply send a radio signal asking for volunteers?

They didn't, because they entry literally says there will be a "recruiting booth". I mean, if you have a mission need to send recruiters and you have the fuel to do so, and you have to transport these people back anyway, why not send a ship. Which is the foundation of the campaign premise - CENTCOM has resources to conduct more normalized military operations than other almost any other command anywhere else in the world.

I mean, really, if you wanted to flaunt "The recruiting officer (the referee) should stress all the benefits of service in the Middle East (fuel in abundance, air support, regular supplies and pay, and so on). In fact, the recruiting of- ficer would probably greatly overstate the advantages, describ- ing the area of operations as virtually a modern U.S. oil shiekdom, and U.S. soldiers living in luxury between their mis- sions," a radio transmission is not a great sales method. Showing up, in a big boat, with fuel, is going to help sell that premise. It's why you see sales people roll in Cadillacs and not Yugos.

And let's revisit that quote - fuel in abundance, air support... That's not overstating the case because the next sentence is literally all about how to overstate all of that!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not a thing as far as I can see, but would Israel be any more willing to share their missiles than the French? Would they even be compatible? How would they get them over to Iran through a region openly hostile to Israel?
Sure, they could be flown across, but cargo aircraft are notoriously vulnerable and it's far from the most economical way to do it anyway.

So the reason you get to play Israelis in the sourcebook, is because

"The Jor- danians and the Israelis had done about as much as they could do in their area. Their respective governments decided that a presence in the Persian Gulf area would at least insure them a greater say in oil allocation. The Jordanians sent their crack 5th Armored Division. The Israelis sent the 35th Parachute Brigade, the 7th Armored Brigade, and supporting units."

So Israel is there to get a share of oil/fuel. And as the book establishes, that has a cost ($7 for diesel, etc.). Fiat currency, like the Shekel, is probably not going to pay the bill. So, it's the barter system... What do they have that the RDF might want? How about munitions? You asked where munitions for this fleet might be coming from, this is a possible answer.

So maybe it's not this particular missile, or maybe a U.S. frigate gets a mount refitted during a layover after escorting fuel over - the payment is the missile system (or whatever the munition is bartered between the parties).

Again, if I have a task force, and I have fuel for that task force (plus enough to trade), and I have an ally who wants fuel (enough to ante up the Blood part of Blood and Treasure), and they possibly have munitions production capabilities based on a long history of weapons development and surviving infrastructure (the transfer of which which would also serve to protect their forces in region as well), I'm pretty sure that can all work out.

And to recap - Kenya does not have to be involved.

[Legbreaker]

You know that people already there in Bremerhaven could have staffed that booth? It's the same army after all and there's no need to send a person when a message will do.

Another point is recruiters lie. It's a well known fact within the military that they'll oversell the good things and totally whitewash the bad. They're worse than used car salesmen and real estate agents like that. The RDF sourcebook says pretty much the same thing.
"Fuel in abundance" probably just means you get almost enough to complete the mission (you need to scrounge the fuel needed to get home again), "air support" means there's a couple of banged up aircraft nearby that fly about once a month but god help you if you ask for it if you're in less danger than being currently overrun by an entire Soviet mechanised battalion.
Prewar that small stretching of the truth would still paint a bleak picture. After several years in Europe, it's pure utopia.

The "overstating" mentioned in the RDF Sourcebook looks to me to involve pure fabrication rather than simple stretching of the truth. Sure, SOME soldiers might experience SOME of the perks mentioned, but only the truly blessed, extremely high ranking, or very corrupt (ie Supply Sergeant "Crapgame" in Kelly's Heroes) would get more than a few of them.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You know that people already there in Bremerhaven could have staffed that booth? It's the same army after all and there's no need to send a person when a message will do.

Another point is recruiters lie. It's a well known fact within the military that they'll oversell the good things and totally whitewash the bad. They're worse than used car salesmen and real estate agents like that. The RDF sourcebook says pretty much the same thing.
"Fuel in abundance" probably just means you get almost enough to complete the mission (you need to scrounge the fuel needed to get home again), "air support" means there's a couple of banged up aircraft nearby that fly about once a month but god help you if you ask for it if you're in less danger than being currently overrun by an entire Soviet mechanised battalion.
Prewar that small stretching of the truth would still paint a bleak picture. After several years in Europe, it's pure utopia.

The "overstating" mentioned in the RDF Sourcebook looks to me to involve pure fabrication rather than simple stretching of the truth. Sure, SOME soldiers might experience SOME of the perks mentioned, but only the truly blessed, extremely high ranking, or very corrupt (ie Supply Sergeant "Crapgame" in Kelly's Heroes) would get more than a few of them.

Let's presume said booth is filled with Army EUCOM staff who are shilling for CENTCOM billets. The PCs still have to be moved from one theater to the next. Which takes ships or aircraft and fuel. Which again, the RDF Sourcebook says CENTCOM has.

The RDF Sourcebook is intended to familiarize referees (and players, to a lesser extent) with the region around the Persian Gulf which has become the primary "stomping grounds" of the U.S. Central Command. It is in this area (where a few remain- ing oil refineries produce a trickle of fuel) that the war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union is still being fought on something resembling the old terms.

Just seems like you guys are injecting a lot of stuff that's just NOT in there.

Keyword Searches that receive 0 hits:

Brewing
Foraging
Alcohol
Distill
Ethanol
Methanol
Scrounge
Scrounging

Survival gets 1 hit: Twilight: 2000 29 is Game Designers' Workshop's trademark for its role-playing 30 game of survival in a devastated world.

Brew gets 3 hit: all part of Hebrew.

Still is found on 17 pages and none of them are for 'an apparatus used to distill liquid mixtures'. They all for other definitions of the word.

And let's finish on your two banged up aircraft:

USAFCENT: Air support is provided by the U.S. Air Forces Central Command (USAFCENT). The operational headquarters is the 9th Air Force. Originally, USAFCENT was slated to receive the equivalent of 7 Air Force Wings, but other considerations prevented this. USAFCENT wound up with the equivalent of three. Although its numbers have diminished, USAFCENT's air craft remain a potent combat force. In the summer of 1998, the surviving fixed wing elements of the US Navy and the US Marine Corps' 1st Marine Air Wing came under command of USAFCENT for administrative and operational purposes.

We don't have to guess what the composition is. We don't have to figure out what things 'probably' mean. It's all outlined in the book in the: Orders of Battle - This listing represents conditions as of January 1, 2001. All locations are in Iran, unless otherwise noted.

9th US Air Force (USAFCENT) HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
VFC-76 (60 men, 2 F-14Ds, 6 F/A-18s): Naval air units under USAFCENT control, Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
HR-28 (30 men, 4 UH-60s): Naval air units under USAF CENT control, Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
VOJ-204 (4 Fokker F-27s, 2 Breuget Atlantiques): Naval air units under USAFCENT control, Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Marine Air Wing HQ: Marine air units under USAF CENT control, Bandar Abbas
VMFA-214 (50 men, 4 F-18s): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia VMFA-442 (60 men, 6 AVSBs): Bandar Abbas VMFA-119 (100men, 4AV-8Bs, 7 CH-53E, 6AH-1Ts,
2 UH-60s): Bandar Abbas
HMC-332 (50 men, 6 AH-1Vs): Bandar Abbas HMHR-301 (20 men, 6 CH-53s): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Tac Ftr Wing HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
94th Tac Ftr Sdn (140 men, 4 F-15s): Al Qatif, SA
93rd Tac Ftr Sdn (160 men, 5 F-16s): Al Qatif, SA 72nd Tac Ftr Sdn (140 men, 3 F-16s): Dharan, SA
4th Tac Ftr Wing HQ: Bushehr
303rd Tac Ftr Sdn (160 men, 4 A-10s): Bushehr 180th Tac Ftr Sdn (155 men, 4 A-7s): Bandar-e
Khomeyni

Plus those C-130s I mentioned earlier.

Jesus are we reading the same book? Is this a Hallmark Special where we finally find out some of you can't read gud?

[Legbreaker]

With the oil from the German tanker there's no need for fuel to be sent from the middle east. In fact it'd be very dangerous to do so especially with the situation in the English Channel as shown in Boomer. Any transit would really need to be around the western side of the UK.

As for airpower, just because those craft are listed doesn't mean they're all operational, or even undamaged. As mentioned, parts are hard to come by as are munitions. Fuel is more plentiful than elsewhere, but still not in quantities that allow indiscriminate use (just look at the black market prices compared to IRL). My comment about air support being limited and anyone calling for it without a VERY good reason being hauled over the coals stands.

There's also a near zero chance of any flights between the middle east and Germany - just look at how many enemy units are between them. Sure, you could take the long way around, but I don't see too many aircraft on the list with the required range, certainly not without refuelling somewhere. That of course requires fuel to be available at a location where they aren't going to get shot at and the locals aren't wanting the fuel supplies for themselves.

In flight refuelling? Sure, they've got a couple of tankers, but just look at how many were required by the British Vulcan attacks on Port Stanley. https://youtu.be/ng_X2dHJpZ4?t=284
Also, tankers and cargo/passenger aircraft are extremely vulnerable and would need escorting, which of course requires even more fuel and tanker capacity.
And all this for what? One C-130 making the journey?

Now, lets get on to your misunderstanding of what I was saying about the "couple of banged up aircraft". What I was actually saying is that it probably all that would be available at any one time to a brigade commander, not the total of aircraft in the entire theatre. Also, just because there are so many aircraft in the theatres doesn't mean they're all available at all times - even just general routine maintenance will have some of them unavailable without prior planning for a large operation. As for the rest, well, as I've already implied, it's quite likely most will be out of effective range when needed, or even if they are in the area, may not be carrying the right mix of munitions (as an example could be carrying all air to air when a ground attack mission is called for).

Even today IRL it's not uncommon for air power or even artillery to be unavailable. There's often times when a battalions own mortars are not available for a company to call upon because they've been tasked to support another company. That situation would only be worse in T2K.

I'm not arguing it's going to be aircraft, just that they are an option, because the RDF has fuel, ships, and aircraft available. Again, rocking up in the big ship sells tickets to CENTCOM better than anything else.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Now, lets get on to your misunderstanding of what I was saying about the "couple of banged up aircraft". What I was actually saying is that it probably all that would be available at any one time to a brigade commander, not the total of aircraft in the entire theatre. Also, just because there are so many aircraft in the theatres doesn't mean they're all available at all times - even just general routine maintenance will have some of them unavailable without prior planning for a large operation. As for the rest, well, as I've already implied, it's quite likely most will be out of effective range when needed, or even if they are in the area, may not be carrying the right mix of munitions (as an example could be carrying all air to air when a ground attack mission is called for).

Even today IRL it's not uncommon for air power or even artillery to be unavailable. There's often times when a battalions own mortars are not available for a company to call upon because they've been tasked to support another company. That situation would only be worse in T2K.

Yeah, out of 50+ aircraft, all but a couple, ONCE A MONTH, are down for maintenance. Sure, that seems reasonable.

So for an Orbat like:

999th Infantry Division
Manpower: 4000
Tanks: 2

Which is pretty common - What would the availability of those tanks look like? Would you find them to be unavailable for similar reasons (maintenance, no ammo, etc.?), 1/50th unit availability of 1/30th of the time? <so like the coax is available every third Thursday.>

For all those dudes, are only 2.66 available on any given day?

Or would you accept that ORBAT as is, with those vehicles and personnel available for combat operations when needed and then allocate them appropriately?

[Olefin]

Yes I know Kenya didn’t produce oil - it’s the fully working refinery that is the important part as well as a working port and shipyard that haven’t been damaged by the war. The Saudis and others are still producing oil but their refineries have taken a lot of damage and aren’t anywhere near full capacity - Mombasa’s is fully functional - that makes it worth the US intervention to keep that refinery going. And the fully functional port is needed to be to support the US efforts in the Middle East as well. The 173rd wasn’t mentioned in the original canon as it wasn’t in existence when it was written. Frank was going to have it be reconstituted for the war and sent to defend Kenya along with other forces - primarily to keep that refinery and port going.

That was going to be in his Kenya module which he was working on when GDW shut down.

Marc Miller has put the East Africa Kenya sourcebook as a canon book for V2.2. Thus it’s now part of canon and those ships are part of the surviving USN forces. And the 173rd - at least as of April 2001 - is still in Kenya and still defending the refinery along with the reconstituted 2nd Armored which was rebuilt using the surviving 300 men who were in Europe and adding forces that had been sent to Kenya in 1998 and 1999.

There are a few test wells by 2001 producing a very small amount of oil - the refinery is refining oil shipped from the Middle East wells to Kenya for refining. Once the Saudis and others get their refineries working again then Mombasa is not going to be so critical to the war effort in the Middle East. But until then it’s the only game in town for a fully working refinery at full capacity.

That doesn’t retcon anything - there are remaining refineries in the Middle East - working at a fraction of capacity. Mombasa’s isn’t one of them. That’s why the US is there - that and the port and also to make use of what is left of Kenya’s working factories - including one that makes ammunition

[Olefin]

And why aren’t the forces in Kenya mentioned in the RDF? Because they have been spun off under their own command structure AFRICOM - they are no longer part of CENTCOM. The RDF shows the US forces under CENTCOM command in the Iranian/Saudi theater. Those forces do not include the forces that are deployed in Africa- that is a separate theater and command structure. Also notice that they are using the joint CIA/DIA intelligence service and that ambassador Thayer is mentioned in the sourcebook in agreement with canon as well as the special forces deployed to Kenya - which are now under SOCAFRICA control.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Marc Miller has put the East Africa Kenya sourcebook as a canon book for V2.2.

It's only canon for v2.2? Good to know.

I'm not a maths guy, but would it be more or less efficient to fuel tankers full of crude and escort them (also requiring refined fuel) from the Persian Gulf to the Kenyan refinery (or are there more than one), rather than just refining the Gulf crude in the operational refineries already in the region (per the RDF sourcebook)?

If I had to guess, I'd go with less efficient, maybe even much less efficient. Hopefully, someone with better match skilz can confirm or refute this hasty conclusion.

Also, wouldn't it take longer, and require burning more fuel, to transport refined fuel from Kenya to Europe (around the Cape of Good Hope) and/or the Americas ("" or by crossing the Indian & Pacific Oceans) than it would via the Med? That, however, assumes that the Suez canal is still open. Does anyone know if its status is mentioned in canon?