US Navy Ships of the Twilight War

[Legbreaker]

You know that people already there in Bremerhaven could have staffed that booth? It's the same army after all and there's no need to send a person when a message will do.

Another point is recruiters lie. It's a well known fact within the military that they'll oversell the good things and totally whitewash the bad. They're worse than used car salesmen and real estate agents like that. The RDF sourcebook says pretty much the same thing.
"Fuel in abundance" probably just means you get almost enough to complete the mission (you need to scrounge the fuel needed to get home again), "air support" means there's a couple of banged up aircraft nearby that fly about once a month but god help you if you ask for it if you're in less danger than being currently overrun by an entire Soviet mechanised battalion.
Prewar that small stretching of the truth would still paint a bleak picture. After several years in Europe, it's pure utopia.

The "overstating" mentioned in the RDF Sourcebook looks to me to involve pure fabrication rather than simple stretching of the truth. Sure, SOME soldiers might experience SOME of the perks mentioned, but only the truly blessed, extremely high ranking, or very corrupt (ie Supply Sergeant "Crapgame" in Kelly's Heroes) would get more than a few of them.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You know that people already there in Bremerhaven could have staffed that booth? It's the same army after all and there's no need to send a person when a message will do.

Another point is recruiters lie. It's a well known fact within the military that they'll oversell the good things and totally whitewash the bad. They're worse than used car salesmen and real estate agents like that. The RDF sourcebook says pretty much the same thing.
"Fuel in abundance" probably just means you get almost enough to complete the mission (you need to scrounge the fuel needed to get home again), "air support" means there's a couple of banged up aircraft nearby that fly about once a month but god help you if you ask for it if you're in less danger than being currently overrun by an entire Soviet mechanised battalion.
Prewar that small stretching of the truth would still paint a bleak picture. After several years in Europe, it's pure utopia.

The "overstating" mentioned in the RDF Sourcebook looks to me to involve pure fabrication rather than simple stretching of the truth. Sure, SOME soldiers might experience SOME of the perks mentioned, but only the truly blessed, extremely high ranking, or very corrupt (ie Supply Sergeant "Crapgame" in Kelly's Heroes) would get more than a few of them.

Let's presume said booth is filled with Army EUCOM staff who are shilling for CENTCOM billets. The PCs still have to be moved from one theater to the next. Which takes ships or aircraft and fuel. Which again, the RDF Sourcebook says CENTCOM has.

The RDF Sourcebook is intended to familiarize referees (and players, to a lesser extent) with the region around the Persian Gulf which has become the primary "stomping grounds" of the U.S. Central Command. It is in this area (where a few remain- ing oil refineries produce a trickle of fuel) that the war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union is still being fought on something resembling the old terms.

Just seems like you guys are injecting a lot of stuff that's just NOT in there.

Keyword Searches that receive 0 hits:

Brewing
Foraging
Alcohol
Distill
Ethanol
Methanol
Scrounge
Scrounging

Survival gets 1 hit: Twilight: 2000 29 is Game Designers' Workshop's trademark for its role-playing 30 game of survival in a devastated world.

Brew gets 3 hit: all part of Hebrew.

Still is found on 17 pages and none of them are for 'an apparatus used to distill liquid mixtures'. They all for other definitions of the word.

And let's finish on your two banged up aircraft:

USAFCENT: Air support is provided by the U.S. Air Forces Central Command (USAFCENT). The operational headquarters is the 9th Air Force. Originally, USAFCENT was slated to receive the equivalent of 7 Air Force Wings, but other considerations prevented this. USAFCENT wound up with the equivalent of three. Although its numbers have diminished, USAFCENT's air craft remain a potent combat force. In the summer of 1998, the surviving fixed wing elements of the US Navy and the US Marine Corps' 1st Marine Air Wing came under command of USAFCENT for administrative and operational purposes.

We don't have to guess what the composition is. We don't have to figure out what things 'probably' mean. It's all outlined in the book in the: Orders of Battle - This listing represents conditions as of January 1, 2001. All locations are in Iran, unless otherwise noted.

9th US Air Force (USAFCENT) HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
VFC-76 (60 men, 2 F-14Ds, 6 F/A-18s): Naval air units under USAFCENT control, Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
HR-28 (30 men, 4 UH-60s): Naval air units under USAF CENT control, Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
VOJ-204 (4 Fokker F-27s, 2 Breuget Atlantiques): Naval air units under USAFCENT control, Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Marine Air Wing HQ: Marine air units under USAF CENT control, Bandar Abbas
VMFA-214 (50 men, 4 F-18s): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia VMFA-442 (60 men, 6 AVSBs): Bandar Abbas VMFA-119 (100men, 4AV-8Bs, 7 CH-53E, 6AH-1Ts,
2 UH-60s): Bandar Abbas
HMC-332 (50 men, 6 AH-1Vs): Bandar Abbas HMHR-301 (20 men, 6 CH-53s): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Tac Ftr Wing HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
94th Tac Ftr Sdn (140 men, 4 F-15s): Al Qatif, SA
93rd Tac Ftr Sdn (160 men, 5 F-16s): Al Qatif, SA 72nd Tac Ftr Sdn (140 men, 3 F-16s): Dharan, SA
4th Tac Ftr Wing HQ: Bushehr
303rd Tac Ftr Sdn (160 men, 4 A-10s): Bushehr 180th Tac Ftr Sdn (155 men, 4 A-7s): Bandar-e
Khomeyni

Plus those C-130s I mentioned earlier.

Jesus are we reading the same book? Is this a Hallmark Special where we finally find out some of you can't read gud?

[Legbreaker]

With the oil from the German tanker there's no need for fuel to be sent from the middle east. In fact it'd be very dangerous to do so especially with the situation in the English Channel as shown in Boomer. Any transit would really need to be around the western side of the UK.

As for airpower, just because those craft are listed doesn't mean they're all operational, or even undamaged. As mentioned, parts are hard to come by as are munitions. Fuel is more plentiful than elsewhere, but still not in quantities that allow indiscriminate use (just look at the black market prices compared to IRL). My comment about air support being limited and anyone calling for it without a VERY good reason being hauled over the coals stands.

There's also a near zero chance of any flights between the middle east and Germany - just look at how many enemy units are between them. Sure, you could take the long way around, but I don't see too many aircraft on the list with the required range, certainly not without refuelling somewhere. That of course requires fuel to be available at a location where they aren't going to get shot at and the locals aren't wanting the fuel supplies for themselves.

In flight refuelling? Sure, they've got a couple of tankers, but just look at how many were required by the British Vulcan attacks on Port Stanley. https://youtu.be/ng_X2dHJpZ4?t=284
Also, tankers and cargo/passenger aircraft are extremely vulnerable and would need escorting, which of course requires even more fuel and tanker capacity.
And all this for what? One C-130 making the journey?

Now, lets get on to your misunderstanding of what I was saying about the "couple of banged up aircraft". What I was actually saying is that it probably all that would be available at any one time to a brigade commander, not the total of aircraft in the entire theatre. Also, just because there are so many aircraft in the theatres doesn't mean they're all available at all times - even just general routine maintenance will have some of them unavailable without prior planning for a large operation. As for the rest, well, as I've already implied, it's quite likely most will be out of effective range when needed, or even if they are in the area, may not be carrying the right mix of munitions (as an example could be carrying all air to air when a ground attack mission is called for).

Even today IRL it's not uncommon for air power or even artillery to be unavailable. There's often times when a battalions own mortars are not available for a company to call upon because they've been tasked to support another company. That situation would only be worse in T2K.

I'm not arguing it's going to be aircraft, just that they are an option, because the RDF has fuel, ships, and aircraft available. Again, rocking up in the big ship sells tickets to CENTCOM better than anything else.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Now, lets get on to your misunderstanding of what I was saying about the "couple of banged up aircraft". What I was actually saying is that it probably all that would be available at any one time to a brigade commander, not the total of aircraft in the entire theatre. Also, just because there are so many aircraft in the theatres doesn't mean they're all available at all times - even just general routine maintenance will have some of them unavailable without prior planning for a large operation. As for the rest, well, as I've already implied, it's quite likely most will be out of effective range when needed, or even if they are in the area, may not be carrying the right mix of munitions (as an example could be carrying all air to air when a ground attack mission is called for).

Even today IRL it's not uncommon for air power or even artillery to be unavailable. There's often times when a battalions own mortars are not available for a company to call upon because they've been tasked to support another company. That situation would only be worse in T2K.

Yeah, out of 50+ aircraft, all but a couple, ONCE A MONTH, are down for maintenance. Sure, that seems reasonable.

So for an Orbat like:

999th Infantry Division
Manpower: 4000
Tanks: 2

Which is pretty common - What would the availability of those tanks look like? Would you find them to be unavailable for similar reasons (maintenance, no ammo, etc.?), 1/50th unit availability of 1/30th of the time? <so like the coax is available every third Thursday.>

For all those dudes, are only 2.66 available on any given day?

Or would you accept that ORBAT as is, with those vehicles and personnel available for combat operations when needed and then allocate them appropriately?

[Olefin]

Yes I know Kenya didn’t produce oil - it’s the fully working refinery that is the important part as well as a working port and shipyard that haven’t been damaged by the war. The Saudis and others are still producing oil but their refineries have taken a lot of damage and aren’t anywhere near full capacity - Mombasa’s is fully functional - that makes it worth the US intervention to keep that refinery going. And the fully functional port is needed to be to support the US efforts in the Middle East as well. The 173rd wasn’t mentioned in the original canon as it wasn’t in existence when it was written. Frank was going to have it be reconstituted for the war and sent to defend Kenya along with other forces - primarily to keep that refinery and port going.

That was going to be in his Kenya module which he was working on when GDW shut down.

Marc Miller has put the East Africa Kenya sourcebook as a canon book for V2.2. Thus it’s now part of canon and those ships are part of the surviving USN forces. And the 173rd - at least as of April 2001 - is still in Kenya and still defending the refinery along with the reconstituted 2nd Armored which was rebuilt using the surviving 300 men who were in Europe and adding forces that had been sent to Kenya in 1998 and 1999.

There are a few test wells by 2001 producing a very small amount of oil - the refinery is refining oil shipped from the Middle East wells to Kenya for refining. Once the Saudis and others get their refineries working again then Mombasa is not going to be so critical to the war effort in the Middle East. But until then it’s the only game in town for a fully working refinery at full capacity.

That doesn’t retcon anything - there are remaining refineries in the Middle East - working at a fraction of capacity. Mombasa’s isn’t one of them. That’s why the US is there - that and the port and also to make use of what is left of Kenya’s working factories - including one that makes ammunition

[Olefin]

And why aren’t the forces in Kenya mentioned in the RDF? Because they have been spun off under their own command structure AFRICOM - they are no longer part of CENTCOM. The RDF shows the US forces under CENTCOM command in the Iranian/Saudi theater. Those forces do not include the forces that are deployed in Africa- that is a separate theater and command structure. Also notice that they are using the joint CIA/DIA intelligence service and that ambassador Thayer is mentioned in the sourcebook in agreement with canon as well as the special forces deployed to Kenya - which are now under SOCAFRICA control.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Marc Miller has put the East Africa Kenya sourcebook as a canon book for V2.2.

It's only canon for v2.2? Good to know.

I'm not a maths guy, but would it be more or less efficient to fuel tankers full of crude and escort them (also requiring refined fuel) from the Persian Gulf to the Kenyan refinery (or are there more than one), rather than just refining the Gulf crude in the operational refineries already in the region (per the RDF sourcebook)?

If I had to guess, I'd go with less efficient, maybe even much less efficient. Hopefully, someone with better match skilz can confirm or refute this hasty conclusion.

Also, wouldn't it take longer, and require burning more fuel, to transport refined fuel from Kenya to Europe (around the Cape of Good Hope) and/or the Americas ("" or by crossing the Indian & Pacific Oceans) than it would via the Med? That, however, assumes that the Suez canal is still open. Does anyone know if its status is mentioned in canon?

[Olefin]

It’s mentioned that the French got it open again in the East Africa Sourcebook which is based on the French forces in Djibouti and that those forces would be there to defend the ability to transit thru the Canal. Also that getting the US forces from Germany to Iran by going all the way around the Cape given the condition of the ships described would most likely have taken too long. They left in November and got there before Christmas - that screams passage thru the Canal. Also I don’t see the French having the build up they have with the Canal out of operation.

And Marc said that he wanted it specifically written for V2.2 - it can be used for V1 but you have to modify some of the material presented in it for V1. The character generation pages and the animal encounters for instance.

And yes it would be worth it to ship the oil to Kenya for refinement - you can get a hell of a lot of it refined in a much shorter time period.

Is that the same, 'Give me $800 for this Kickstarter tier and you'll be written into the Traveller Galaxiad' Marc Miller? Because Marc Miller is to pen-and-paper RPGs, as Tom Clancy is to computer games - the check cleared, SHIP WHATEVER!

Asking for a friend.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

Is that the same, 'Give me $800 for this Kickstarter tier and you'll be written into the Traveller Galaxiad' Marc Miller? Because Marc Miller is to pen-and-paper RPGs, as Tom Clancy is to computer games - the check cleared, SHIP WHATEVER!

Asking for a friend.

Actually no that’s the Marc Miller who owns the T2K V1 and V2.2 timelines and who has officially stated that the Kenya Sourcebook is canon. The reason it’s V2.2 and not V1 is that he told me he had no interest in releasing new V1 official canon material and he wanted it written specifically for V2.2. Since he owns those two timelines he is the arbiter if what is canon and what isn’t and he accepted the East Africa Sourcebook as canon. Personally I wish he would also accept what Raellus wrote for Korea and Europe as well as canon. They are as good as anything released originally. And I didn’t give him squat to get it to be canon. He looked at it, told me it would be canon and it was released. And I would appreciate you going somewhere else with BS suggesting I paid to get the material declared canon.

Sorry Spartan but that is a little past the pale - especially considering your friend is most likely the person who told me that trying to get anything published for the game was a fools errand. Luckily I didn’t take that advice

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And yes it would be worth it to ship the oil to Kenya for refinement - you can get a hell of a lot of it refined in a much shorter time period.

Can you provide any numbers to justify that claim? (If you're going to quote specific percentage damage to the Gulf refineries I presume you'll have page numbers from published material to back your claims up. Also, how many barrels do you propose to ship?)

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It's only canon for v2.2? Good to know.

LOL...V1 for the win, always. I don't think I could tell you the first thing about the 2.2 timeline? Does anyone use it?

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm not a maths guy, but would it be more or less efficient to fuel tankers full of crude and escort them (also requiring refined fuel) from the Persian Gulf to the Kenyan refineries, rather than just refining the Gulf crude in the operational refineries already in the region (per the RDF sourcebook)?

If I had to guess, I'd go with less efficient, maybe even much less efficient. What do y'all think about this?

Yeah, to me it makes zero sense to ship unrefined crude across the Indian Ocean to be refined and then shipped back again. I think shipping oil to the Gulf is analogous to shipping snow to Alaska.

Some rough numbers from here

http://abarrelfull.wikidot.com

If my maths are right, the combined output of current refineries in Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Kuwait and Iran is somewhere in the region of five million barrels per day (4,971,000 rounded off). I can't easily ascertain what that figure might have been in 1996 / 1997 but let's knock 10 per cent and call it four and a half million. That's the main producers - if you include Qatar, Jordan, and Oman you'll get another 600,000 to 700,000.

The total output of Kenya's solitary refinery is listed as 90,000 barrels per day. Let's knock of the same 10 per cent for 1996 / 1997 levels and that gives is 81,000. So even if the main producers in the Middle East had suffered 90% damage (i.e. nowhere near full capacity) they'd still comfortably exceed Kenya's (full capacity) production. And you don't have to factor in fuel for the tankers / ships. And, as we've already established, the Gulf refineries are producing enough to export. Ergo, they have a surplus. At least according to the RDF Sourcebook and V1 canon.

Sure, as was mentioned upthread, it doesn't hurt to have MORE capacity, but to posit that the 'the Mombasa refinery and port is what is keeping the US forces in the Middle East a going concern' makes no sense to me - Mombassa represents a small fraction of the total refinery capacity available in the Gulf. And I seriously doubt that the fuel costs involved in convoying oil backwards and forwards across the Indian Ocean would justify an attempt.

There's also practicalities. An Ultra Large Crude Carrier (ULCC) can easily carry two million barrels. Refined at a rate of 81,000 barrels per day that would take about 25 days to process a complete load. Add in shipping time and you're probably talking about a month. Let's go back to our Gulf refineries and presume 90% damage, which leaves capacity to process approx 450,000 barrels per day. That would take less than five days to process the same 2,000,000 barrels. And there is precisely zero chance of your ULCC sinking on the way back, taking your 2,000,000 barrels of refined oil to the bottom of the IO.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

LOL...V1 for the win, always. I don't think I could tell you the first thing about the 2.2 timeline? Does anyone use it?

Yes, I too do not have one single care to give about the 2.2 timeline. I'm pretty sure Predator shows up during that timeline at some point.

And by Predator, I mean this Predator..



Not this one. I could live with this one.




Anyway, being able to not have Frank Frey's half-conceived Kenya refinery premise eviscerate the RDF sourcebook carve-out created beforehand, solves all my problems.

Honestly, the best suggestion I've ever heard is to have 'The Heard' deployed to Romania when they declare for NATO. That's a EUCOM unit solving a EUCOM problem and that's that my solution for my 1.0 Twilight universe for where they end up.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

Honestly, the best suggestion I've ever heard is to have 'The Heard' deployed to Romania when they declare for NATO. That's a EUCOM unit solving a EUCOM problem and that's that my solution for my 1.0 Twilight universe for where they end up.

I have to say, that does sound like a damn good idea.