Black Sea Naval Actions

[Raellus]

If a non-Turkey NATO nation tried to force it's way from the Med into the Black Sea, it would probably be mentioned in canon.

The v1 history makes numerous mentions of Soviet and Bulgarian ground operations against Turkey, but nothing of naval actions. I'm not intimately familiar with all of the canon, so I wanted to ask the experts out there if it might have been mentioned in an another source.

Even if not, I figure that's most likely a case of omission on the writers' part than an indication that naval actions between Soviet Black Sea Fleet and the Turkish navy didn't occur at all. They probably thought most T2k refs/players didn't care if the Soviet and Turkish navies clashed once or twice in the Black Sea.

I suppose Targan could be right, though. Perhaps the Soviets just nuked the Turkish navy in the Black Sea. They nuked them on land, and besides Turkey, it was just SSRs all around so, why not?

As for the RNF, Romania's budget problems in the late '80s, I'm not sure that they could afford to put naval ships to sea very often or for very long. In my T2kU, Soviet BSF naval aviation Shturmovik squadrons sank most of the tiny Romanian navy at anchor. A Red Fleet Kilo class diesel submarine sank the lone RN frigate that managed to sortie.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, most of the canon materials focuses on ground forces rather than air and sea power - which makes sense anyway as ships and aircraft are both very resource hungry (just the amount of fuel they burn is horrendous!).

It's no surprise there's nothing mentioned about an attempt to break into the Black Sea - just the brief assessment I made in my previous post would be enough for even the most offensive minded commander to scrub the whole idea as suicidal. It'd be on par with dropping paratroops into Berlin in 1942 and expecting them to survive more than a day!

This of course raises the small question of what happened to the Soviet Black fleet? My thoughts are taken out by airstrikes, nukes and maybe subs (probably Turkish assets) with the remainder relegated to rusting wharf queens due to lack of fuel, ammunition, crew and spare parts (more or less what happened IRL to the Soviet Navy post USSR break up).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, most of the canon materials focuses on ground forces rather than air and sea power - which makes sense anyway as ships and aircraft are both very resource hungry (just the amount of fuel they burn is horrendous!).

You're right, but there brief descriptions of major naval engagements off Norway and the Kola Peninsula, and in the Aegean (the Greeks taking out a NATO fast convoy on its way to Turkey with supplies) so I don't know what to think about why no mention was made of naval warfare on the Black Sea.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's no surprise there's nothing mentioned about an attempt to break into the Black Sea - just the brief assessment I made in my previous post would be enough for even the most offensive minded commander to scrub the whole idea as suicidal. It'd be on par with dropping paratroops into Berlin in 1942 and expecting them to survive more than a day!

You're so right that I doubt anyone tried!

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

This of course raises the small question of what happened to the Soviet Black fleet? My thoughts are taken out by airstrikes, nukes and maybe subs (probably Turkish assets) with the remainder relegated to rusting wharf queens due to lack of fuel, ammunition, crew and spare parts (more or less what happened IRL to the Soviet Navy post USSR break up).

I think you're right. Did you read that article I posted the link to about B-1Bs training to take out the Black Sea fleet just last month? Bonkers!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Did you read that article I posted the link to about B-1Bs training to take out the Black Sea fleet just last month. Bonkers!

I read almost everything.
Also, fix the damn thread title will you? It's driving me mad!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I read almost everything.

That's not a yes.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Also, fix the damn thread title will you? It's driving me mad!

Oh, man! Thanks for catching that. I looked at it a bunch of times but didn't notice the mistake. My brain kept filling in the blank for me so I saw "Black" instead of "Back". Trippy!

-

[Raellus]

Someone else found this and pointed it out to me. From Mediterranean Cruise:

THE WAR

"As a member of NATO, Turkey had no objections to going
to war against its traditional enemy, the Soviets (the name
changed, but the hatred remained). The fact that the Greeks
were opposed to the war only made it that much more attractive
to the Turks. The whole affair was a formula for disaster.
Turkey's role in the war was limited at first. A few air strikes
against Soviet shipping in the Black Sea, and a naval sortie or
two into the same area-they always ended in disaster for the
Turkish forces, but the fact that they were striking at Soviets
was a pleasant thought to most Turks." (p. 35)

This gives me a little something to work with, so I'll take it.

[Southernap]

So in real life, from what I had read the US Navy wasn't interested until very late into the 1980s about going into Black Sea with anything. The transit thru the Dardanelles is very tight and restrictive water way, see this video of a tanker doing it, sped up footage. Note you can see this video of a submarine, probably a Type 209 in transit on the surface. Can you really imagine a 688 hull (LA class) or a 637 hull (Sturgeon class) trying to transit thru the area? They would have to surface and with potentially hostile forces along the shoreline with ATGMs or even land based AScMs, if not shore based artillery. Its dangerous and as the engagements off Yemen in the last decade have shown its dangerous to have a ship in range of shore based AScMs. Let alone minefields from either the Turks or the Greeks (or both) in the approaches to the straits?

In addition if you look up how the Turkish Navy is arranged from 1952 thru to even now. They are primarily aimed at their classic enemies of the Greeks and the Arabs on the Eastern Med. So most of their basing is in the Aegean and Eastern Med. There wasn't a feeling that anything in the Black Sea would last longer than an ice cube in the Sahara at high noon in the summer.

That said, the US Navy did do a FON into the Black Sea in 1988. Here is some videos of the Russian/Soviet response to that:
Video 1
Video 2

From most of the Eastern Med is very hard to navigate large naval forces and it isn't very deep water in most locations (averages about 5k ft/1.5km; with the deepest is about 16k ft/4.8km near the waters off Greece) for reference the RMS Titanic is about 12.5k Ft/3.8km down in the Atlantic. From what I have read, the NATO and USN doctrine from the late 70s thru to the 80s; was to allow for the Soviet Black Sea Fleet sortie. Allow for Greece and Turkey fight in and around the Aegean using missile boats and their submarines to whittle down forces. After which what remained would be engaged by the US 6th Fleet, Italian and French Naval Forces arranged in various carrier battle groups (Around the Clemenceau, or CdG in French; and the Garibaldi in Italy). Using Italian and French land based air cover to help protect the fleet and cover the convoys operating in the Med. All while trying to contain the expect Soviet breakout from the Med into either the Indian Ocean or into the Atlantic.

All of which again, means why go into the Black Sea and the tight maneuvering areas of the Aegean, when you have more room even in the Eastern Med, with any sort of fleet?

Finally, remember that the Crimea was where the Soviets had their Black Seas fleet based Naval Aviation units that included long range bombers, such as the Tu-16s, Tu-22s, Tu-22Ms, Tu-95s. In addition to whatever was assigned to the PVO for strike and fighter aircraft. So honestly, why put any surface forces at risk to these missile carrying units that could maximize their load outs and their cycle times (launch, weapons release, recovery) from detection to missile firing?