Yugoslavia

[Rainbow Six]

Rae, I’m fairly confident that’s a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Division’s 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

What I don’t get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I don’t claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where we’re at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. I’d have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Rae, I’m fairly confident that’s a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Division’s 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

I'd totally agree with you if the v.1 history didn't support a late 1999 date for the dispatch of 42nd ID. It doesn't actually specify what unit was sent, but the history states that CivGov initiated the late war reinforcements, so the timelines match up.

The reference about IV Corps HQ accompanying 42nd ID suggests that, in late 1999, CivGov was trying to assume command of the US forces that had been in-country since mid-'98.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

What I don’t get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I don’t claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where we’re at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. I’d have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

I agree, but I have a theory to explain this. The Italians partition Yugoslavia in the spring of '98 but, in the summer, the Yugoslavian army tries to link up with NATO forces in Hungary. My hypothesis is that this rump Yugoslavian army was made up of a Serbian majority. Since the Serbs were supporting NATO, and the US presumably sent those two light IDs to support that [majority Serbian] army driving into Hungary, the Croats got pissed off and got in the American's way. The US Army Vehicle guide mentions at least one of the US light IDs fighting Croatian separatists. The most likely port of entry for the US forces is Split, which is located in present-day Croatia. It actually seems kind of plausible.

At the same time, the Soviet forces sent from Romania in '98 most likely would have entered Serbian territory, perhaps provoking a strong anti-Soviet response from the locals. So, in this scenario, the Serbs remain aligned with NATO, and the Croats join the other side. This theory seems to line up with the end state established by the game writers, at least. I don't know if this alignment is what they were intending, or whether it was established by accident because they didn't have a firm grasp on Balkans history/politics, etc.

-

[Rainbow Six]

Sorry, I don't agree about the 42nd. I'm convinced it's a typo.

From the US Army Vehicle Guide (bolding mine)

In the autumn of 1999, the [42nd] division was deployed by sea to Jugoslavia. Upon arrival it came under com- mand of US IV Corps, the headquarters of which arrived in the same convoy as the division's 2nd Brigade. The division entered combat against Croatian Nationalist Army units on 10/7/98.

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

As for IV Corps, it's stated in the write ups for the 76th and 80th Divisions as already being in country in 1998.

On 8/2/98, the [76th] division began moving overland to Virginia and suffered considerable casualties en route from bandit ambushes. The division arrived on the eastern seaboard in early October and began deploying to Jugoslavia by sea in late October. Upon arrival it came under command of US IV Corps and first entered combat on 11/5/98 against units of the Albanian Peoples Liberation Front.

The [80th] division was formed on 7/20/98 by redesignation of the 80th Training Division (U.S. Army Reserve) in Richmond, Virginia. In October of 1998 the division was deployed by sea to Jugoslavia where it came under command of the US IV Corps and entered combat against Croatian Nationalist Army units on 11/1/98.

The only way that's consistent with the HQ element of IV Corps arriving in 1999 is if the rest of IV Corps deployed in 1998 without its HQ element (and then waited for a year for its HQ element to arrive).

Personally, I take the view that all of IV Corps arrived in 1998, which would be consistent with the 42nd going into action against Croat forces in 1998.

I'm not sure about the Serb / Croat thing. I need to take a deeper dive on that.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

Maybe. Or maybe I now have a late Rad Zone contest entry involving 'rumors of a time-machine in Jugoslavia.'

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

Maybe. Or maybe I now have a late Rad Zone contest entry involving 'rumors of a time-machine in Jugoslavia.'

LOL...I was going to mention blue police boxes. Or a Delorean.

There's also a brief reference to the 42nd in Armies of the Night

By the summer of 1998, it became obvious that the harvest from the midwest was going to be very small and virtually impossible to transport. The newly formed 78th Infantry Division was assigned to New York City, replacing the detachments of the 42nd (which were being deployed to Jugoslavia).

Now, it's not conclusive as it doesn't mention an actual deployment date so I suppose they could have spent a year preparing for deployment but I doubt it...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Sorry, I don't agree about the 42nd. I'm convinced it's a typo.

That's cool. I'm just trying to reconcile canon.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

Yep, and the date that's wrong could be the 1998 one. 42nd ID could have arrived in Autumn of '99 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1999. That's entirely plausible.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

As for IV Corps, it's stated in the write ups for the 76th and 80th Divisions as already being in country in 1998.

That's not in dispute.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

The only way that's consistent with the HQ element of IV Corps arriving in 1999 is if the rest of IV Corps deployed in 1998 without its HQ element (and then waited for a year for its HQ element to arrive).

Not necessarily. Two light infantry divisions does not a corps make. If they were sent to support the Yugoslavian army's drive into Hungary in mid-1998, it's entirely possible that intention was to place the two US divisions under Yugoslavian command for the duration of the offensive. As it turned out, they couldn't link up with the Yugoslavs. There's really no reason that they couldn't still operate for a year or so without a dedicated corps HQ.

My reasoning is that, after the Yugoslavian gov't recognizes CivGov's legitimacy in the Spring of 1999 (as per the v.1 history), CivGov decides to lay claim to the two US divisions stuck in Yugoslavia, thus solidifying CivGov's presence in SE Europe, so it sends along a Corps HQ when it dispatches 42nd ID to Europe as reinforcements in the autumn of '99.

The v.1 history states, "In the autumn [of 1999], the dispatch of troops to Europe resumed, although only as a trickle. Initiated by the civilian government... the call-ups affected only the Atlantic coast..."

The 42nd ID checks off all of those boxes. Atlantic Coast- check; deployed by CivGov- check; arrived Autumn '99- check. AFAIK, it's the only US division in the US Army Vehicle Guide mentioned as being deployed to Europe, by CivGov, in late 1999. It all fits, but for that one typo. It's all circumstantial, but the majority of the evidence supports 1999 as being the correct date.

It may not be pretty, but it all lines up.

-

[Olefin]

And MilGov was organizing forces to go after the Mexican invasion in mid-1998- if you look at the US Army Sourcebook there are repeated references to units being sent into action against the Mexicans - i.e. if the comms are that badly fried how did some units get contacted and sent into action and others didnt?

And a three division Corps - especially one that had at least a division with heavy armor- would have stopped the Mexicans cold most likely and probably taken care of the Texian Legion once and for all in Texas.

Plus how the heck was CivGov going to support the troops they sent to Yugoslavia? At least the units in Germany and Poland and Austria had some logistics and remaining ammo - but once those three units arrive in Yugoslavia they are basically on their own.

FYI I also agree that the authors didnt do their research on the people's of Yugoslavia - the Croats would have been allies for sure of the US not the Serbs - the Serbs have always been the ally of the Russians. And given the real world events of what happened in Yugoslavia I dont see the Bosnians as being pro-Soviet either. A much more likely alignment is the Croats joining up with US forces along with the Bosnians and the Serbs joining up with the Soviets - with the Greeks and the Macedonians and Albanians fighting among themselves and the Slovenes trying to support German and Austrian forces

[Raellus]

Like I always say, you're free to do what you like with your T2kU. I'm trying to find a way to reconcile what's in canon. I think I've figured out a plausible way* to arrive at what's established in the v1 history and vehicle guides. It ain't pretty, but it works- the pieces fit. If you prefer to go a different route, more power to you.

I find canon-bashing to be kind of a futile exercise. It is what it is, and no one's going to change it. As Ref's, though, we're free to modify it to suit our own sensibilities. In my mind, it's better to find ways to make canon work than to RETCON it, but that's just my POV and I'm not trying to push it on anyone else.

It'll be interesting to see what Free League does with Yugoslavia, if they touch on it at all.

*Thanks again to Southernmap for finding the missing piece- a good reason for the US to send two light infantry divisions to Yugoslavia in 1998.

-

[bash]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998? The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia"? There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

My problems:

• The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic?
• By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med?
• Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions? It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.

Now I could maybe buy a POMCUS setup where there's vehicles and supplies in Yugoslavia but they need warm (trained) bodies to operate them. So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I'm not sure about the Serb / Croat thing. I need to take a deeper dive on that.

My mother is Croatian; Croatians HATE Serbs and vice versa. It's racist, etc. but there it is. It's long, deep, unreasoning hatred that goes back to the days that the Ottoman Empire was the local superpower. In addition, the Serbs tend to side with whoever is the winner -- they were the first to side with the Nazis, and Austro-Hungarians, and Tito. (As a matter of fact, Tito is the only this that drew some Croats and Serbs together.) But my mother still distrusts Serbs, even though she cannot give you many logical reasons why.