Announcement from Free League Publishing

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by comped

Meaning that, unless things change, we're going to have a lot of different people using the same things, none of it canon.

The positive in that is the potential for a lot of different people to be playing T2K. That's a good thing. I don't really think most gamers will have any interest in getting too bogged down in the minutiae of what is or is not official canon. If they like something they'll use it, if they don't they'll ignore it (that happens anyway, even with canon - I ignore the Survivor's Guide to the UK, I've seen others say they ignore Howling Wilderness).

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

The positive in that is the potential for a lot of different people to be playing T2K. That's a good thing. I don't really think most gamers will have any interest in getting too bogged down in the minutiae of what is or is not official canon. If they like something they'll use it, if they don't they'll ignore it (that happens anyway, even with canon - I ignore the Survivor's Guide to the UK, I've seen others say they ignore Howling Wilderness).

Personally I prefer what you wrote for the UK any day to the Survivors Guide

So at this point, because of all the hate speech over in the discord channel (plus Olefin, who has greatly benefited by comparison) , I have so many of you on the ignore list that I have no idea what some of these threads are actually actually about. So I maybe I'm flying blind here, but I'm an American, so f*cksgiven zero, I'm posting!!!

You guys who say you aren't going to support this - come on; really think about this! Maybe there are some nugget to mine (Base rules? What if there's a unicorn gun Paul doesn't have!?).

I haven't played a Twilight 2K game in 10 years that uses basic load + $,$$$ per year of service - they have all used 'anything you can can carry, up to maximum load' for personal gear. That nugget came from 2013!!

What if all of your IRL friends get this version? You are gonna want to participate (ok, so that presumes you have IRL friends but you deserve the benefit of the doubt you Grognards!!). A lot of you like to hate on stuff (you know who you are) - how can you hate on something you don't have!? Buy it for that reason if nothing else animates you!

The truth is - for almost two decades, I've had to get my RPG fix online. I move around a lot and until very very recently, it was hard to find RPG players. Now, people are playing 5e in hordes. Sure, it's small batch, hand crafted, hipster RPGing or whatever, but it's happening. People are coming out of the woodwork for it. We, the TW2K enthusiast, have a window of opportunity (maybe small or maybe large) to introduce them to Twilight 2000. Now we have a new product to do it with!

Be honest with yourselves, these new RPers are not going to learn:


Actual Twilight 2.2 version formula provided above

They just aren't. And that's ok. That formula isn't Twilight 2000. The setting, the feeling... that's Twilight 2000.

Twilight 2000 is 30% your gun is X, or Y, or Z and 70%, 'you have only 3 magazines remaining....'.

I have absolute faith that any of you can run an authentic Twilight 2000 with what Free League will provide us.

Come on in for the big win! The last time we had this was what, May 2009, when 2013 was released? We've waited 11 years for this!

Maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you sign on, you'll get a chance to help improve it.

When I was living in Arlington, Jason had a Meetup.com listing for a Twilight 2000 group meeting in Fairfax. I almost went to one - So close. But I had something else to do. I kinda always regretted not making time for that. Then I moved to a wasteland of RPGing where no one knew what Twilight 2K was.

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

So at this point, because of all the hate speech over in the discord channel (plus Olefin, who has greatly benefited by comparison) , I have so many of you on the ignore list that I have no idea what some of these threads are actually actually about. So I maybe I'm flying blind here, but I'm an American, so f*cksgiven zero, I'm posting!!!

You guys who say you aren't going to support this - come on; really think about this! Maybe there are some nugget to mine (Base rules? What if there's a unicorn gun Paul doesn't have!?).

I haven't played a Twilight 2K game in 10 years that uses basic load + $,$$$ per year of service - they have all used 'anything you can can carry, up to maximum load' for personal gear. That nugget came from 2013!!

What if all of your IRL friends get this version? You are gonna want to participate (ok, so that presumes you have IRL friends but you deserve the benefit of the doubt you Grognards!!). A lot of you like to hate on stuff (you know who you are) - how can you hate on something you don't have!? Buy it for that reason if nothing else animates you!

The truth is - for almost two decades, I've had to get my RPG fix online. I move around a lot and until very very recently, it was hard to find RPG players. Now, people are playing 5e in hordes. Sure, it's small batch, hand crafted, hipster RPGing or whatever, but it's happening. People are coming out of the woodwork for it. We, the TW2K enthusiast, have a window of opportunity (maybe small or maybe large) to introduce them to Twilight 2000. Now we have a new product to do it with!

Be honest with yourselves, these new RPers are not going to learn:


Actual Twilight 2.2 version formula provided above

They just aren't. And that's ok. That formula isn't Twilight 2000. The setting, the feeling... that's Twilight 2000.

Twilight 2000 is 30% your gun is X, or Y, or Z and 70%, 'you have only 3 magazines remaining....'.

I have absolute faith that any of you can run an authentic Twilight 2000 with what Free League will provide us.

Come on in for the big win! The last time we had this was what, May 2009, when 2013 was released? We've waited 11 years for this!

Maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you sign on, you'll get a chance to help improve it.

When I was living in Arlington, Jason had a Meetup.com listing for a Twilight 2000 group meeting in Fairfax. I almost went to one - So close. But I had something else to do. I kinda always regretted not making time for that. Then I moved to a wasteland of RPGing where no one knew what Twilight 2K was.

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

Spartan its about making sure that they stay as true as they can to the spirit of the game and that we dont have a repeat of Twilight 2013 - and they need to take the hint from the kickstarter both about how large the fanbase is and also what we are expecting from them

this needs to be a fully supported game - not one that a new module or sourcebook gets released every year or two - and the timeline needs to make sense not be a confused muddle that you look at and go huh???

And having them saying they are basically depending on unofficial fan canon to carry the game after the initial release isnt exactly very encouraging

based on the kickstarter they need to man up (in this case I mean get some manpower - or woman power) and get writing and get those follow ups in the pipe line as soon as they can

and that includes things like new sourcebooks, weapons and vehicle books, modules, etc. - sorry but the US Army had a hell of a lot more vehicles than just M113, Hummers and M1A1 tanks - and a game that is partially based in Sweden and no Swedish military vehicles?

the last thing we need is amateur hour or having this be under supported by the new owners

and depending on the fans to write for them with unofficial releases that will probably be totally contradictory and not in line with follow up releases (if and when they are ever done) is definitely both

if they want to show they are serious they should be talking to those of us who have written in recent past or are writing now and take advantage of a quick way to get some new releases - heck Alf's two books are perfect to be made into V4 canon new releases and I bet Legbreaker's will be as well. Mine depends more on what their timeline ends up as - i.e. the only reason the US is there is that refinery in Mombasa - if its not important in V4 then the US wouldnt be sending troops there - but Alf's books should fit right in

Hi dude named after Synthetic Fiber!

I presume your message is:

Spartan is amazing; thank heavens for his insightful, timely posts, which make me reflect on my online interactions and improve my ability to connect with people across the world.

Because, otherwise, you know, IGNORE LIST.

[Olefin]

I have a feeling if they put out in the kickstarter another stretch goal saying this is the money needed for first of the European follow up modules or a full fledged US Army and Soviet Army Vehicle Sourcebook it would get filled up pretty damn fast

[Raellus]

There's no such thing as bad press, right? And most of what I've been seeing here and on FB is very supportive of Free League's endeavors. The naysayers, at this point, seem to be a small minority. I've been very pleasantly surprised at how successful the Kickstarter has been to this point. I think it's really cool that so many people are eager enough for a fresh take on the genre that they're supporting its development financially. I think that bodes well for the future of v4.

I too have concerns about quality control issues and signal-to-noise ratio that lots of sponsored fan-created content will generate, but it's probably better to have more choices in terms of content than fewer.

I get it, though. We all love this game- that's why we're here. We don't want FL to "ruin" it for us. But let's wait and see what they come up first* before dismissing it. And hey, if you end up not liking what they come up, there's still v1, 2, and 2013 to fall back on.

*Don't put too much stock in the sample pages. They're SAMPLE PAGES. Teaser trailers, if you will. I'm confident that what they've shared so far will be more fleshed out by the time it gets to market.

-

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Spartan its about making sure that they stay as true as they can to the spirit of the game.

I see it a little differently. I’d say it’s about introducing a whole new generation of gamers to T2K. If part of that entails some tweaks and changes along the way I don’t have a problem with that. If you want to stay as true as you can to the spirit of the [original] game why don’t you just carry on playing the original game?

Originally Posted by Olefin

we dont have a repeat of Twilight 2013

What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)

Originally Posted by Olefin

That includes things like new sourcebooks, weapons and vehicle books, modules, etc. - sorry but the US Army had a hell of a lot more vehicles than just M113, Hummers and M1A1 tanks - and a game that is partially based in Sweden and no Swedish military vehicles?

Pretty sure this has already been stated, but all we’ve seen so far are three sample pages. No one has said that those are going to be the only vehicle choices. Give the people a chance.

Originally Posted by Olefin

the last thing we need is amateur hour

You’ve been fairly scathing of some of the professionally produced works before - Howling Wilderness springs immediately to mind. I’m sure we’ve both seen amateur work that’s better than the professional product. Your East Africa sourcebook started out as an amateur effort did it not? Are you saying that its quality somehow improved when it became part of 2.2 canon? You said upthread that you preferred my (amateur and most certainly non canonical) Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK to the professionally published one.

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I see it a little differently. I’d say it’s about introducing a whole new generation of gamers to T2K. If part of that entails some tweaks and changes along the way I don’t have a problem with that. If you want to stay as true as you can to the spirit of the [original] game why don’t you just carry on playing the original game?


What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)


Pretty sure this has already been stated, but all we’ve seen so far are three sample pages. No one has said that those are going to be the only vehicle choices. Give the people a chance.


You’ve been fairly scathing of some of the professionally produced works before - Howling Wilderness springs immediately to mind. I’m sure we’ve both seen amateur work that’s better than the professional product. Your East Africa sourcebook started out as an amateur effort did it not? Are you saying that its quality somehow improved when it became part of 2.2 canon? You said upthread that you preferred my (amateur and most certainly non canonical) Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK to the professionally published one.

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

actually my final version was a lot more polished than the original fan canon version - thats because I knew it was going to be official canon and I went thru it and did a lot of improvements to the original version - let alone making damn sure I wouldnt get sued for the pictures

And I never said Howling Wilderness wasnt well written - I said that it killing off basically most of the remaining US population with an uber drought that had no relation to reality was what I didnt support - that and having the US bring home 30000 plus soldiers and at most using 2000 or so of them and the US military made no effort to recruit new troops (when joining the Army is the best way to get fed after all) were not smart plot points

It was well written - it just had major plot issues and continuity errors - and you could see it was a direct "oh well we have to kill the US off enough to make 2300AD plausible" effort - but lets not jump the thread with yet another long winded Howling Wilderness debate shall we?

And lets be clear - attracting a new fan base is great but not at the cost of pissing off your old one - go ask Coca Cola how well new Coke worked for them

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

Because, otherwise, you know, IGNORE LIST.

Doesn't that feature just enhance your enjoyment of this forum like nothing else short of bourbon? I may need to use it a little more than I currently do.

Too bad it doesn't work on quotes.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)

o7

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

I'll refer back to my previous comments about parts of this fan base just not wanting anything new because... reasons.

Back when the 93GS forum was running, we had one dude on there who legit wanted 2013 to fail because no one working on it was old enough to have served in West Germany in the '80s. That was his whole issue... as if spending a year staring at the Fulda Gap was a requirement to be a credible game designer in this genre.

- C.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

There's no such thing as bad press, right? And most of what I've been seeing here and on FB is very supportive of Free League's endeavors. The naysayers, at this point, seem to be a small minority. I very pleasantly surprised at how successful the Kickstarter has been to this point. I think it's really cool that so many people are eager enough for a fresh take on the genre that they're supporting its development financially. I think that bodes well for the future of v4.

I too have concerns about quality control issues and signal-to-noise ratio that lots of sponsored fan content will generate, but it's probably better to have more choices in terms of content than fewer.

I get it. We all love this game- that's why we're here. We don't want FL to "ruin" it for us. But let's wait and see what they come up first* before slagging it. And hey, if you end up not liking what they come up, there's still v1, 2, and 2013 to fall back on.

*Don't put too much stock in the sample pages. They're SAMPLE PAGES. Teaser trailers, if you will. I'm confident that what they've shared so far will be more fleshed out by the time it gets to market.

-

The biggest concerns I have is that they really put some thought into the timeline, the vehicles and weapons and the need for follow up releases. I would rather see it delayed a month or two and get it really polished then rush it out too fast. And I hope they know it needs to be fully supported by them and with official releases. I know how long we have waited for this and that frankly the game has been in the Dead Games pile way too long.

With luck they will take one look at how fast the kickstarter has been funded and realize that this is not something to think they can one and done or one and "we will get back to you eventually" with official releases.

That was one smart thing GDW did - they released follow ups in a timely fashion that filled the need of those who loved the game and wanted that new material. And the last thing they need to do - especially with the attention spans of so many nowadays - is release it and everyone loves it and then nothing new at all to follow up with and depend on the kindness of strangers to write quality material

I.e. the last thing that V4 needs is a City of Angels or Survivors Guide to the UK type fan release as the follow up to a polished initial release and us being told the official releases wont be coming out for six months or a year or two

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

The biggest concerns I have is that they really put some thought into the timeline, the vehicles and weapons and the need for follow up releases. I would rather see it delayed a month or two and get it really polished then rush it out too fast. And I hope they know it needs to be fully supported by them and with official releases. I know how long we have waited for this and that frankly the game has been in the Dead Games pile way too long.

FL has a year to complete the base game (IIRC, the release date is currently Summer, 2021), and a good track record (Tales from the Loop, Alien) so I wouldn't worry too much about getting a shoddy rush job. IIRC, the base game will include at least one campaign scenario (EfK redux) and a couple of mini-adventures (unlocked stretch-goal content) so there'll be enough to keep the new gamer occupied for a bit.

Yeah, hopefully they have a module or two ready to print/ship within a year of the product launch, but if Free League is in it for the long haul, then they don't want to shoot their wad too soon. D&D 5e has released an adventure module or setting book every few months since the base game was introduced and this has apparently been a very successful/lucrative strategy for the company. If you release a ton of stuff right away, your short-term profits might be greater, but interest will wane as soon as you've run out of fresh content, and long-term profits will almost certainly suffer. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[sellanraa]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

Tend to agree. To see noses turned up at a new edition possibly creating some new momentum and interest with minimal supplements produced in 20+ years (excluding 2013, which to me is something different). I dunno, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Thankful to have a bit of disposable income so I can buy a game I might never play, but to support the company's attempt at reviving it, even if I don't vibe on the rules makes complete sense to me.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by sellanraa

Tend to agree. To see noses turned up at a new edition possibly creating some new momentum and interest with minimal supplements produced in 20+ years (excluding 2013, which to me is something different). I dunno, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Thankful to have a bit of disposable income so I can buy a game I might never play, but to support the company's attempt at reviving it, even if I don't vibe on the rules makes complete sense to me.

Alf and I have released three new supplements in the last few years - and the only reason there werent more is that Marc told us that he was negotiating for a V4 and that, at that time, he wasnt interested in more - at least that is what he told me when I asked about more releases

And then that changed after the fanzines got 1350 plus downloads each