British Army With No Tanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Raellus]

Yeah, that was a really interesting piece, Targan. Thanks for posting.

Some thoughts prompted by the article:

I reckon ELINT is going to be a game-changer on the modern battlefield, given the proliferation of digital systems in modern armies. It's not as sexy as other battlefield weapon systems, so I hope NATO armies don't overlook it.

I wonder what workis being done on passive drone detection systems (since radar is vulnerable to detection, jamming, and HARM-type weapons).

Anti-drone weapon systems seem to be lagging behind drone tech. In recent years, I've seen articles on all manner of anti-drone systems, but UAVs still seem to be a major nuisance on battlefields all over the world.

Since the topic of this thread is tanks, I'm going to start another for discussion of drones.

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[Legbreaker]

Remember when in the 50's and 60's missiles were supposed to be the end of tanks?
Look what's still here half a century later....

Machineguns were said to spell the end of warfare back in WWI, but again, there's still wars. All that's really changed are the tactics to deal with the new threats. SOME of that involves new equipment, but the three basic principles remain as they always have - mobility, protection, firepower.

[Fallenkezef]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Remember when in the 50's and 60's missiles were supposed to be the end of tanks?
Look what's still here half a century later....

Machineguns were said to spell the end of warfare back in WWI, but again, there's still wars. All that's really changed are the tactics to deal with the new threats. SOME of that involves new equipment, but the three basic principles remain as they always have - mobility, protection, firepower.

If we'd gone to war with Russia in the 70's then ATGMs would of dominated but by the mid to late 80's you had composite armour and ERA systems.

It's all a pendulum.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fallenkezef

If we'd gone to war with Russia in the 70's then ATGMs would of dominated...

Would they though? How did the outnumbered Israeli armoured forces fair against them during that period?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Would they though? How did the outnumbered Israeli armoured forces fair against them during that period?

Is this a rhetorical question? During the Yom Kippur War (1973), the Israelis suffered shocking, unexpected tank losses/crew casualties as a result of Egyptian AT-2 Sagger ATGMs (making their combat debut). Tank losses on the Suez front were so heavy that the Israelis practically begged the USA for replacement tanks. Their experience in 1973 led to the development of the home-grown Merkava MBT, which put an emphasis on crew survivability.

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[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Is this a rhetorical question? During the Yom Kippur War (1973), the Israelis suffered shocking, unexpected tank losses/crew casualties as a result of Egyptian AT-2 Sagger ATGMs (making their combat debut). Tank losses on the Suez front were so heavy that the Israelis practically begged the USA for replacement tanks. Their experience in 1973 led to the development of the home-grown Merkava MBT, which put an emphasis on crew survivability.

...and yet they still won.
Twice.
Against near impossible odds.

The point is the ATGM did not make tanks obsolete, and the best counter to missiles wasn't increasing armour or doing away with armour entirely, it was changing overall tactics, ensuring tanks did not operate without infantry, artillery and air support.

The development of new tanks would have happened anyway as metallurgy improved, engines became more reliable, powerful, more fuel efficient, and a host of other technological advances. Missiles were not the cause of tank evolution, they were just one part of it.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The point is the ATGM did not make tanks obsolete, and the best counter to missiles wasn't increasing armour or doing away with armour entirely, it was changing overall tactics, ensuring tanks did not operate without infantry, artillery and air support.

The development of new tanks would have happened anyway as metallurgy improved, engines became more reliable, powerful, more fuel efficient, and a host of other technological advances. Missiles were not the cause of tank evolution, they were just one part of it.

I agree with you on both points (although, regarding the latter, in the case of the Merkava, Israeli experience facing ATGMs in 1973 was a direct catalyst). I only posted re the Yom Kippur War because your post to which I was responding seemed to completely dismiss the impact of ATGMs in the 1970s.

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