4th ed T2K

[mpipes]

I managed to look at the draft.

I am with Olefin on a lot of the criticisms. THE ART WORK IS AWSOME.....but....

The background does not look that bad to me. Very sparse on details, leaving to Referees to fill in the blanks. Not terrible, but not that great. A bit too Swedish centrist to my taste for PC generation. My biggest gripe is the complete ignoring of the Central European military. You need a bit of flavor for German, Danish, UK, Czech, and Slovak forces. Italy and Hungary would be a good idea as well. I much prefer the overall wider sweep of forces in the GDW versions. However, this may be planned for rectifying in later modules. At the very least, the background and character generation should include the afore mentioned militaries and a least some German and UK units mentioned (and maybe a few Pole, Slovak, and Czech units here and there). Also, who are the Soviet allies? None???

A lot of the rules look like crap to me with the entire underlying character attributes and skill ratings looking clunky not to mention weapon ratings and vehicle stats. Vehicle and weapons need to be expanded.

Say what you will about the GDW editions, but their attributes, skills, and rating are far more straightforward and intuitive. The rules need to stick to kilogram weights and meter weapon ranges, speeds, and movements.

UNFORGIVEABLE: The Swedish focus given the lack of anything on NATO or PACT forces/PCs etc. I understand why its there but really; exactly what are the chances of encountering Swedish Army troops (or equipment) in Central Europe versus any NATO or PACT forces (or any equipment)?? That just needs to be fixed.

ALSO MY EYES ARE BURNING!!!!
A RPD picture is shown for the PKM. That's like an entry for a lion and then showing a picture of a bobcat. I'm sorry, but that is just plain sloppy!!!

And the guys obviously don't know beans about hunting. You don't need to use a shotgun on grouse or any bird. It darn well makes things easier, but if you are good enough (and my uncle is) you can shoot grouse or ducks out of the sky with a rifle. On the other hand, they do know about grenade fishing; I tip my hat to that!!

<sigh>

[Lurken]

Soviets have zero allies.

Sweden has things vanishing. The entire government+parliament goes =POOOF= behind friendly lines when going somewhere else instead of their designated bunker shortly after the war begins.

An entire Mechanized division goes =POOF= in the woodland s of Småland one week after invasion. Zero traces of anyone from that division or anything from that division.

Gotland going =POOF=, as in no one knows what is going on there. Absolutely no one.

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Lurken

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

Thanks, but I think it was Raellus that was querying that side of things. Certainly wasn’t me.

[mpipes]

Lurken,

I certainly don't want to criticize the playtesters, but.....

Did you guys buy off on the weapon and vehicle rating system?

Character attributes?

These mechanics seem wildly messy to me and not intuitive at all, but I grew up in the old style D&D and SPI era, so maybe I am just damaged goods in a sense.

Does anybody think they are good? Or an improvement over V 1 or 2.2?

[Legbreaker]

I focused more on the background. The rules gave me a headache just thinking about them.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Lurken,

I certainly don't want to criticize the playtesters, but.....

Did you guys buy off on the weapon and vehicle rating system?

Character attributes?

These mechanics seem wildly messy to me and not intuitive at all, but I grew up in the old style D&D and SPI era, so maybe I am just damaged goods in a sense.

Does anybody think they are good? Or an improvement over V 1 or 2.2?

The system was done as it was. I did point out some bits that I found wonky. But didn't get listened to. The Weapons... I didn't even look there. Couldn't be arsed. I cared about the story. Because, you can play T2k with any system. It lives with the world and setting, not the rules.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Lurken

It lives with the world and setting, not the rules.

Exactly right. There's many instances over the last nearly 4 decades T2K has existed where people have used alternate mechanics. The setting is the game.

What we have been presented with, that's not T2k when looked at from that perspective. Lurken and I did our best, but it seemed their minds were already made up. The overall situation was set in stone and all our comments and suggestions amounted to a few minor tweaks here and there. Fortunately we were able to talk them out of some of the REALLY bad ideas, but, as can be seen, by no means anything close to all.

It wasn't just the two of us though, there were others who will remain anonymous until they choose to speak up. Suffice to say the community did speak, but it seems our voices fell on, if not deaf ears, certainly ones hard of hearing.