v4 Rules & Mechanics Discussion

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Welcome to what it's been like to be a fan of D&D since around 1999/2000.

Oh yes, I am well aware of what actual toxic behaviour on a forum looks like. One only has to visit some D&D, Battletech, Vampire and even Traveller forums to see that what has occurred here is people getting hot blooded and other people getting their feelings hurt because someone does not share their vision of what the game should be (and no, I am NOT leaving myself out of those categories)
This forum is actually pretty damned tame compared to some of the forums for those games listed above. I'm aware of arguments on some of those forums that have continued over a course of years. And the "version wars", oh my god! The things hurled back and forth on some of those threads would make any grumpy old curmudgeon feel like a puppy in the company of feral dogs - it's more a bloodfeud than a disagreement!

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Oh yes, I am well aware of what actual toxic behaviour on a forum looks like. One only has to visit some D&D, Battletech, Vampire and even Traveller forums to see that what has occurred here is people getting hot blooded and other people getting their feelings hurt because someone does not share their vision of what the game should be (and no, I am NOT leaving myself out of those categories)
This forum is actually pretty damned tame compared to some of the forums for those games listed above. I'm aware of arguments on some of those forums that have continued over a course of years. And the "version wars", oh my god! The things hurled back and forth on some of those threads would make any grumpy old curmudgeon feel like a puppy in the company of feral dogs - it's more a bloodfeud than a disagreement!

LOL! If you want to start a REAL FLAME WAR, just go over to a D&D5e Forum and post some "houserules" to make it more "gritty..." Like requiring an ARCANA PROFICIENCY Check to cast Spells or reducing the Proficiency Bonus to +1 thru +5.
I once posted that I changed Wisdom to Willpower because I saw that stat as a measure of "mental strength" while I viewed Wisdom as the sum of a PLAYER'S own experience. Not only did this start a flame war, but I made the mistake of quoting Mark Twain's "Wisdom is the product of Experience... and Experience is often the product of poor choices." Some poster there told me she was an English and Literature teacher and that Mark Twain was a racist and no longer an acceptable reference to use. Then she reported me for hate speech!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Then she reported me for hate speech!

Totally unsurprised. You committed the treasonous offence of "wrongthink"!

[Olefin]

Comments on the Player Manual

The Beta only still has Poles, Swedes, Americans and Soviets? No British, no Germans, no Czechs, Hungarians, French, Belgians, etc.

And there are German and Dutch troops in Poland - but the Players Manual lacks information on how to play them as player characters.

What the heck? How hard is it after this was pointed out six months ago to add basic information on how to create British, German and Dutch player characters? There is literally a ton of information in the various V1 and V2.2 books on how to create those characters including a whole sourcebook on the British.

That just flabbergasts me - they mention that you can play campaigns in the UK or Germany but have no mention at all of how to create German or UK characters except as civilians??!!! And there are German and Dutch troops in Poland - and there is no option to play them as player characters?

Free League is supposedly creating the game for the T2K community and ignoring huge areas of the existing fan base who are in the UK, Germany and the Netherlands or who play characters from those areas? Let alone they finally bring France into the war as a fighting force - and then no French player characters? Or Belgians who for sure would be fighting with NATO.

I am sorry but that is a monstrous miss - are they trying screw this up?? I mean James Langham is one of the people advising them on the game - how the heck are there no UK player characters?? Why not have a simple blurb that the final release will have information on playing characters for the UK, Germany, Netherlands, Belguim, etc.. Heck all they would have to do is copy the relevant section in the V2.2 and make some mods. But there is nothing that indicates (after months of input) that there are going to be those other characters.

And dont give me any garbage about the original V1 release lacking in information about other nationalities. This is a reboot of a franchise that has all that information in it - all you have to do is take it and modify it. I did it for the Rwandans, Kenyans, LRA and others in my African Sourcebook by using the V2.2 book (look at pages 69-71 of the final release version). And all I had was me, myself and I when I did it - not a whole team of game developers.

[sellanraa]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Comments on the Player Manual

The Beta only still has Poles, Swedes, Americans and Soviets? No British, no Germans, no Czechs, Hungarians, French, Belgians, etc.

And there are German and Dutch troops in Poland - but the Players Manual lacks information on how to play them as player characters.

This sort of relates to more character creation concerns. I suppose it's a calculation they made that they have enough of a Swedish base of interest to shift that focus, but agree that it ignores the narrative and fan community that may exist elsewhere. More fundamentally to your point too - it wouldn't have been that hard to add a few pages about this.

Hopefully they will in some sort of supplement that will follow.

Originally Posted by sellanraa

This sort of relates to more character creation concerns. I suppose it's a calculation they made that they have enough of a Swedish base of interest to shift that focus, but agree that it ignores the narrative and fan community that may exist elsewhere. More fundamentally to your point too - it wouldn't have been that hard to add a few pages about this.

Hopefully they will in some sort of supplement that will follow.

+1

FL is a business, not a charity and not a state-owned enterprise. They aren't going to release everything at once. They likely want what all businesses want - a continuing profitable revenue stream.

Yes, they could go pick over everything in v1.0 and v2.2 and pack that all in one book, but we'd likely be grousing about the cost of such a book* and how long it would take to be ready for publication.

A few of you have really have high expectations for what would be released in the FL boxed set for what is equivalent to $23.50 USD in 1984 (alternately 14.00 USD for the Digital Only edition, which wasn't an option back then).

The computation here is 498 SEK = 59.41 USD. Grab a handy U.S. inflation calculator available here https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ and enter 1984, 23.50 USD and you get 59.91 cent. Close enough for our purposes.

I'm curious - does anyone know what the price of the boxed set in 1984 was? The one where you got to play in one campaign location (Poland) with only 19 careers (all military).

Adding the RDF campaign location back in 198X cost money. Helicopter stats in FCK cost money. Yes, there's a lot of stuff from prior editions to grab from, but you didn't get it all for $25 on a CDROM in the 80's and 90's.

Leaving aside the mechanics and backstory that reasonable people can disagree on, I think, what you are getting for $60 USD is a bit more than you got back in 1984 for a similar product.

*or maybe you expect all that extra work and intellectual property to be free? Простите товарищ, коммунизм никогда не работал.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

I'm curious - does anyone know what the price of the boxed set in 1984 was? The one where you got to play in one campaign location (Poland) with only 19 careers (all military).

All American military, no less.

My 1e box doesn't have a printed MSRP that I can find. My 2e box's printed MSRP is $24.

- C.