The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have to wonder if Boeing was asked by the USAF to come up with that particular idea?
With all the talk from the last few decades from the top brass of the air force of getting rid of the A-10 because they believe that fast moving fighter jets can do the CAS role, this proposal from Boeing seems to be a case of "Look, just look! Our sexy fast movers CAN do the ground support role!"

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I have to wonder if Boeing was asked by the USAF to come up with that particular idea?
With all the talk from the last few decades from the top brass of the air force of getting rid of the A-10 because they believe that fast moving fighter jets can do the CAS role, this proposal from Boeing seems to be a case of "Look, just look! Our sexy fast movers CAN do the ground support role!"

As a side topic, when they come up with a CAS aircraft that's as effective as an A-10, I'll be the first one to say, "Time to retire the Warthog." The simple fact is that they broke the mold with the Warthog and no one's come up with anything as good at CAS as an A-10.

[Vespers War]

During the Interwar Period, there was a lot of experimentation into what made a tank good. Walter Christie thought it was paper-thin armor and a lot of speed. His M1931 was adopted as the T3 Medium Tank and used for a few years before being retired as too difficult to use, too hard to maintain, and generally inadequate. In large part this was due to Christie's refusal to modify the tanks per the Army's wishes and the subsequent poor relationship leading to parts shortages. Some of the stats will be speculative due to a lack of information. Some information is doubled up because this was one of Christie's convertible tanks that could run on wheels or treads.

Christie T3 Medium Tank
Fire Control: 0
Armament: 37mm M1916, .30 M1919 (both in turret)
Ammo: 240x37mm, 1500x7.62mm
Fuel Type: G
Veh Wt: 10 tonnes
Crew: 2 (driver, commander/gunner)
Mnt: 5
Night Vision: None
(Tracked)
Tr Mov: 96/77
Com Mov: 19/15
(Wheeled)
Tr Mov: 128/26
Com Mov: 30/6
Fuel Cap: 340
Fuel Cons: 100
Config: Veh
Susp: T:2/W:2
HF: 5
HS: 3
HR: 3
TF: 4
TS: 4
TR: 4

37mm L/21 M1916
Rld: 1 Rng: 220
HE: C:1 B:7 Pen: Nil
KE: Dam: 8 Pen: 2/2/1/1

The armament is known, but the ammunition load is speculative. I gave it the same amount of 37mm ammunition as the Renault FT (the M1916 is the American version of the Puteaux SA 18) and assumed 6 belts for the coaxial machine gun. Reported speeds vary, so I picked from among them. Fuel capacity was given as 89 gallons (albeit from a non-authoratative source), which I converted and rounded, and the range was such that I estimated it could run for ~3.5 4-hour periods assuming maximum range was achieved at half of the top speed. The hull armor is based on data, while the turret armor is a guesstimate.

So, you end up with a fast tank that can be penetrated by heavy machine guns and has a pretty pathetic armament. It is fast, though, and its use of a 338-horsepower Liberty V-12 gives it a high power/weight ratio.

[shrike6]

[Vespers War]

It's me again, in this thread again. If you guessed that means something absurd, you're right! A few years ago, Ian posted a video about an early 20th-century French light punt gun, a rather large shotgun meant for commercial hunting of waterfowl. At .920" caliber and with a 48" barrel, it's a big gun, but a (relatively) modest black powder load and a weight of 14 lbs, 4 oz means it can be shoulder-fired. A cartridge with 216 grains of black powder and 8 ounces of shot is what Ian mentions the gun using, which I converted to 68 pellets of FF (the largest waterfowling shot) and a very roughly guesstimated 40mm long case. As far as I know, there was no slug round, but you know some player's going to want one for the hell of it, so I included its stats.

Darne Canardiere Portatif (23.4x40mm black powder shotgun)
Ammo: 23.4x40mm shell
Wt: 6.46 kg
Mag: 1 round, loaded individually

Slug: ROF SS, Dam 9, Pen 2-4-6, Blk 11, Mag 1i, SS 7, Rng 30
Shot close: ROF SS, Dam 51, Pen Nil, Blk 11, Mag 1i, SS 7, Rng 30
Shot med: ROF 5x13/1x3, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Blk 11, Mag 1i, SS 7, Rng 30

This is actually not as absurd as the gun could be - with the smallest shot for waterfowl, T, it would have roughly 102-103 pellets per cartridge and still have enough energy for each to be Dam 1, so at close range it would be Dam 68 and at medium range the ROF would be 5x20/1x3.

[Vespers War]

I've got another weapon Gun Jesus has done videos on that I don't think Paul's got on his website. It's a submachine gun, chambered for 9mm Parabellum, developed just after World War 2 to use surplus Sten magazines. So far, so conventional.

It's a simplified Sten. With a bullpup design. And a wood body. No foregrip. No semi-automatic fire. No trigger guard. No sights. Yes, it's the wacky and WTF-inducing Viper Mark I.

Because of the utterly bizarre firing method, I went with a range halfway between a bullpup and a pistol of otherwise identical configurations. The buttstock under the shoulder should give a more solid anchor than a pistol, but the lack of a handgrip for a third point of contact and the complete lack of sights make it less effective than a rifle. Also, this gun can only take Quick Shots, not Aimed Shots. It uses a shortened Sten magazine because the full-length magazine was unwieldy with this design, but as far as I know there's no physical reason it can't use the 32-round magazine.

Viper Mk.I (9x19mm Parabellum)
Wt 2.1 kg, ROF 5 (no SA), Dam 2, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 4, Mag 20, SS N/A, Brst 5, Rng 40

The Viper Mk.III is somewhat more conventional, with a metal body, normal buttstock, and sights. It also switched from a Sten magazine to an MP40 magazine. A push-through lever/button takes the gun from safe through semi-auto to automatic fire. It had screw-off barrels in 4.7", 6", and 7.5" lengths. The stats below are with the 7.5" barrel.

Viper Mk.III (9x19mm Parabellum)
Wt 2.21 kg, ROF 5, Dam 2, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 4, Mag 32, SS 2, Brst 5, Rng 60



ETA: I think these work particularly well as examples of things that might be produced during the fragmented years when isolated areas are trying to produce firearms for self defense, particularly the Mark I. What's essential (the receiver; the barrel; the trigger system) is simple but effective, and what's not essential (the shell; sights; safeties; selective fire) use non-strategic materials or are simply eliminated. It's almost a real-world equivalent of the M-16EZ, using spare parts to create a gun that's crude but better than nothing.

[shrike6]

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4492.html
https://tanknutdave.com/brazilian-eet4-ogum/

[Raellus]

Check out this jumbo hydrofoil.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...uan-hydrofoils

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[Vespers War]

During these plague times, the Royal Armouries has started up a few video series on YouTube, including one with Jonathan Ferguson, the Master of Firearms and Artillery. Back in March, he took a look at a Treeby Chain Rifle, a .50 caliber rifle that used a chain of 14 chambers revolving around sprockets instead of a conventional revolver cylinder. It didn't have quite enough information to go on, but way back in the 1950s one had been test-fired for its centennial and written about in Guns magazine. This had enough information to put together a rough set of statistics for the gun.

The most interesting feature is that it seals the gap between chamber and barrel by moving the barrel using a threaded sleeve controlled by a handle. This means the firing procedure is slightly more complex than usual. The lever is rotated so the barrel moves forward. Cocking the hammer then rotates a chamber into battery. The lever is then rotated back so the barrel slides over the tapered front of the chamber, and the gun can be fired. This added complication is likely why it was never ordered by the military, despite the weapon apparently working flawlessly in trials. Reloading is slightly slow because it uses loose powder and a ball inserted from the front and a cap placed on the back of the chamber, similar to an Agar (Coffee Mill) machine gun or the earliest Gatlings. Tests were done with a 30-chamber Treeby that apparently also worked well. It was able to fire all 30 shots in a minute, so the seemingly awkward barrel action didn't slow it significantly, albeit with a practiced shooter. In Tommy's hands, it likely would have had significant issues with firing without sealing.

Treeby Chain Rifle (12.7x44.5mm BP Ball)
Wt 4.8 kg, ROF SAR, Rld 2 per chamber, Mag 14, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 7, SS 1, Rng 75

[Raellus]

Sounds like this was more like the worst than the best, but maybe an improved version might find it's way into the Twilight War.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-didnt-go-well

On a slightly related side note, as a kid, I really wanted the G.I. Joe hovercraft. That thing was so boss.

-

[cawest]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Chieftain just did a Youtube on this tank.

[cawest]

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/t-54m...UWAfrEU-HhVkVY

[shrike6]

Air Defense Vulcan Bomber
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...eant-be-193904

[pmulcahy11b]

You know, I have figured out that, in the 17 years (by averages) of life that I have left, I will never finish my web site.

[Vespers War]

One I've only found some information on, so it's a bit tentative:

In the early 2000's, McCann Industries manufactured an M1 Garand in .458 Winchester Magnum, using a muzzle brake and a mercury cylinder in the stock to control recoil. Weight is an estimate, everything is calculated using FF&S.

.458 Win Mag Garand
Wt. 5.30 kg, ROF SA, Mag 8(c)8, Dam 6, Pen 2-4-6, Bulk 7, SS 4, Rng 109

Without the brake, SS increases to 6.

It's certainly not a light rifle, but for sentry duty or similar work it puts a higher-powered round into action while still potentially being in a familiar form.

[Vespers War]

I could have sworn I had written about these, but I can't find a post about it now, so apologies if this is mostly a rehash (and now that I think on it some more, I may have only posted it on a Dark Conspiracy message thread elsewhere).

Back in 2018, Gun Jesus did a video on a Szescei & Fuchs double-barrel bolt-action rifle. Intended for dangerous game hunting, it provides a quicker follow-up shot than a conventional bolt-action with higher ammunition capacity than a tradition double-barrel. Poking around on their website, I found they fall into 7 cartridge sizes: varmint rounds (.17-.22), .30-06, 8x68mm S, .375 H&H Magnum, 9.3x62mm Mauser, .416 Remington Magnum, and .470 Capstick. The Remington Magnum has both side-by-side and over-under configurations, the 8x68mm S is only an over-under, and all the others are only side-by-side. For the Hummingbird in small calibers, I only figured stats for .22 Hornet, which is the most powerful of the available rounds. These are absolute show pieces with engraving and plating and all sorts of decoration, so possibly appropriate for a very rich character to have. While marked as BA for rate of fire, they should be allowed 2 fire actions at SA before having to reload; if only 1 shot is fired before reloading it will eject a live round, since the bolt cycles both barrels' actions simultaneously. The magazine numbers all have "+2" to indicate that both barrels can be carried loaded along with a full magazine.

Hummingbird (5.6x35mm, .22 Hornet)
Wt 3.5 kg, ROF BA, Dam 3, Pen 1-Nil, Blk 7, Mag 8+2, SS 3, Rng 63

Lion’s Dream (7.8x63.1mm Springfield .30-06)
Wt 4.4 kg, ROF BA, Dam 5, Pen 2-3-Nil, Blk 8, Mag 6+2, SS 4, Rng 69

Blue Boy (8x68mm S)
Wt 5.2 kg, ROF BA, Dam 5, Pen 2-4-6, Blk 8, Mag 4+2, SS 5, Rng 75

Elephant’s Life (9.6x72.4mm .375 H&H Magnum)
Wt 5.2 kg, ROF BA, Dam 6, Pen 2-4-6, Blk 9, Mag 6+2, SS 6, Rng 82

Russian Five (9.3x62mm Mauser)
Wt 4.3 kg, ROF BA, Dam 6, Pen 2-4-6, Blk 9, Mag 6+2, SS 6, Rng 83

Big Five Royal Blue / White Tiger / African Queen (10.6x72.4mm .416 Remington Magnum)
Wt 5.2 kg, ROF BA, Dam 7, Pen 2-3-4, Blk 9, Mag 6+2, SS 7, Rng 90

Mokume / Celtic (12.1x72mm .470 Capstick)
Wt 5.4 kg, ROF BA, Dam 8, Pen 2-3-4, Blk 10, Mag 6+2, SS 7, Rng 103

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Back in 2018, Gun Jesus did a on a Szescei & Fuchs double-barrel bolt-action rifle.

That's too juicy to ignore! You mind if I do some research on it and come up with stats on my own?

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's too juicy to ignore! You mind if I do some research on it and come up with stats on my own?

Please do. Their own website is where I got the gun weights and barrel lengths; those plus the bullet diameter and case length are the main numerical variables for the spreadsheet I built based on the FF&S construction system.

[ChalkLine]

FV721 Fox Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Wheeled) (CVR(W)) Variants


Some of these are well known but I'll put them all here in the one place for ease of reference. Note that at least one of each of these vehicles exists today.

The FV721 FOX CVR(W) is a well known vehicle with a 30mm RARDEN autocannon firing from a three round clip. One of the nice things about the RARDEN is that once the clip is inside the weapon is sealed and no gasses escape into the turret. A conversion kit was made for the FV101 Scorpion CVR(T) creating the FV107 Scimitar CVR(T) but the Fox turret¹ also was fitted to the FV423 (issued to the Berlin Brigade), the M113 and the Alvis Saladin.

Note that some FV721 FOX CVR(W) were fitted with a ZB298 ground search radar but these never had a specialised typology. The FV432 conversion mentioned above had this as standard.

While the 30mm RARDEN was good Alvis also tried out some other variations for niche roles, and all but a few were simply turret swaps:

Fox Scout 7.62mm chaingun or GPMG²
Fox MILAN 7.62mm chaingun or GPMG and twin MILAN post²
Fox AA Oerlikon 20mm
Panga FT700 7.62x2
Panga FT800 12.7/7.62
Panga GKN 7.62x1
Stoat/Pole Cat GKN 7.62 turret (as used on the standard FV432)
Night Fox w/thermal instead or radar²
Fox Blow/Jav 7.62mm chaingun or GPMG (replace MILAN with other missile)²
Thunder Fox 7.62mm chaingun or GPMG and HVM missile
Fox "Glow" NBC reconnaissance (no weapon). This little guy is massively sealed and the interior has a nuclear spall liner.

While none of the turrets fitted to the FV101 Scorpion CVR(T) could be fitted to the FV721 FOX CVR(W), all the turrets on the Fox could be fitted to the Scorpion. This means you can have some really weird and whacky Scorps in your game.

¹I can't find its designation
²This is the same turret and the systems are interchangeable

[Vespers War]

There was also an experimental Fox shown at the 1982 British Army Equipment Exhibition with the one-person FMC turret equipped with a 25mm Bushmaster M242 chain gun and a coaxial 7.62mm.

As far as I know that one doesn't exist anymore, but the Vixen does, the unarmed variant with a turret blank carrying the smoke grenade launchers.

[Brit]

In this month's, well the November 2021 issue of, Military Modelcraft International, there is a 1/72 model build of Obiekt 195. (Object 195? Or is it "Ob’yct"?):

https://pocketmags.com/military-mode...613/obiekt-195

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/w-mo...m-gun--1347074

Crewless turret with a 152mm gun and "auxilliary cannon". Looks wile the latter can be used an an AA gun (?)

Is this James Langham's "T95 (Ob'yct 1321)" in his 'The Last Soviet Tanks'?

[pmulcahy11b]

Ob'yekt or Ob'jekt. I've seen both. English translation, Object or in this context, Prototype.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

There was also an experimental Fox shown at the 1982 British Army Equipment Exhibition with the one-person FMC turret equipped with a 25mm Bushmaster M242 chain gun and a coaxial 7.62mm.

As far as I know that one doesn't exist anymore, but the Vixen does, the unarmed variant with a turret blank carrying the smoke grenade launchers.

Didn't the FV722 Vixen have the GKN-Sankey turret with a 7.62? I have seen one with the turret somewhere, I think it's here in Australia

[cawest]

just found this and thought it would fit here. the key is production cost at less than 50 dollars. it would be good for truck crews or ship's crews kind of like M3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQK9JNsrq_8

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by cawest

just found this and thought it would fit here. the key is production cost at less than 50 dollars. it would be good for truck crews or ship's crews kind of like M3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQK9JNsrq_8

Got that -- though I don't remember where I put it. (I think Best Shotguns That Never Were.) However, the T2K cost is significantly more than $50.

[cawest]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Got that -- though I don't remember where I put it. (I think Best Shotguns That Never Were.) However, the T2K cost is significantly more than $50.

i think i am going to make it fire darts underwater. the russians have a pistol with 4 barrels (4.5mm) for underwater use.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by cawest

i think i am going to make it fire darts underwater. the russians have a pistol with 4 barrels (4.5mm) for underwater use.

The Russians also have a pair of amphibious longarms (they're smoothbore, so technically not rifles) - the 5.66x39mm APS and 5.45x39mm ASM-DT, plus the rifled amphibious bullpup 5.45x39mm ADS. Only the APS would be available in most T2K timelines, with the ASM-DT accepted for service in 2000 and the ADS in 2013.

[Brit]

Duxford Tanks. Chieftain Marksman. 17/06/2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CWeino-wu0

[Brit]

Some "never was" and / or Frankentanks here: 'Alternate AFVs for the '70s'. - https://www.alternatehistory.com/for...he-70s.424117/

Plus a M551 Sheridan Low Altitude Parachute drop from youtube (?) part way down the third page.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Brit

Some "never was" and / or Frankentanks here: 'Alternate AFVs for the '70s'. - https://www.alternatehistory.com/for...he-70s.424117/

Nice find!

I have highly inappropriate feelings toward that Israeli upgrade of the M60A2 on the second page of that thread.

- C.