Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

In a number of the militaries of less wealthy countries, a soldier's time is cheaper than new vehicles and there aren't sufficient threats to justify spending large sums of money on the latest shiny toys. There are M8 Greyhounds still serving in multiple Latin American forces, while the last M4 Sherman tanks were retired in 2018 and Paraguay might still have some M3 Stuarts in service (Uruguay retired theirs in 1999). As far as I know, M3 half-tracks are still in service in Mexico. About 15 years newer but still "obsolete," there are hundreds of M60 tanks still in service, to the point that Raytheon and Leonardo have both introduced SLEP packages within the last 5 years, while Taiwan implemented an Elbit SLEP in 2019. There's plenty of old stuff either still trucking along in active service with second (or third, or fourth) users or in reserve to be recalled if there's a big enough war to need fast expansion of a military.

[unipus]

A point I haven't seen brought up in this thread (although maybe I missed it) is that you'd be far, far more likely to see many of these obsolescent vehicles than cutting-edge ones, just as a matter of logistics. Where were all the T-80Us and M1A1s? On the front line. That means that most of them got blow'd up in the first weeks of the war. The repair yards get blow'd up too, the spares get used up or blow'd up. Pretty soon there's not many functioning cool guy tanks around.

All of the above, in super fast motion, for aircraft.

Meanwhile, months or even years later, huge numbers of T-55s and M60s and M48s and T-34s are showing up to keep the show going. I doubt there are a whole lot of replacement T-80s coming, especially once the nukes drop.

Someone said a tank that's out of main gun rounds isn't better than a sandbag emplacement. Functionally true, maybe. In terms of morale on your average infantryman, it's pretty hard to beat the effect of knowing a TANK is guarding the approach to a town. (and I've personally seen this effect even in-game. It's great. One immobile T-55 is plenty enough to send the players scattering to rethink their whole plan -- as well it should!)

[Vespers War]

And modernization can simplify the logistics somewhat if a user plans accordingly - when Egypt updated their T-55s to Ramses II standards, they put in an engine with ~80% commonality with the M60A3's engine. They also used the same M68 cannon that they had used for updating the M60A3, the road wheels were the same as the M48, and British tracks replaced the Soviet style, so spare parts could be used across multiple vehicles. These would have been post-Twilight War vehicles (the prototype was in the late 1980s but series production wasn't until 2004), but the principle remains the same regardless of era - replace aging assemblies with newer ones you're already using, and the maintenance problems become more manageable.

[Ursus Maior]

Yes, these are very good points. Taiwan put M18 Hellcat turrets onto it surplus M42 Duster hulls, creating its Type 64 light tank. In my opinion, the difference between a Frankentank and a cross-model using upgrade is proper technical documentation and a series of builds larger than a hand full of field conversions plus avoiding obvious design bungles (e. g. cannot be operated safely).

[Raellus]

A lot of good points have been raised so far. Another factor to consider is how much, or how little, certain weapon systems are used in field training. Some armies can afford to do a relatively large amount of training, so their equipment sees a lot of use- this produces wear and tear that, in the short-term, requires routine maintenance, and in the long term requires replacement of parts and other more involved work. A lot of armies in the developing world (and some of the poorer Warsaw Pact nations during the Cold War) can't afford to conduct a lot of realistic field training, so their tanks and whatnot spend all but a couple of days a year in depot, not accumulating wear and tear*. So, it might be the case that at the beginning of the Twilight War, a T-34 that's been sitting in a depot for 360 days a year for decades (assuming it receives a modicum of TLC during that time) might be in better working condition than a 10-year old M1 that's been in and out of the shop half-a-dozen times because it's in the field on maneuvers or on the range (or whatever) at least 180 days a year.

*Disparities in training and their impact on operational readiness and battlefield performance is a topic for another thread.

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[Raellus]

Stumbled across this video today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59IFr_5DJ4

No real surprises, IMHO.

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[swaghauler]

The USS COD has arrived in Erie's dry dock facility to undergo maintenance.

https://youtu.be/yj5Zv5LASQc

[Ursus Maior]

Is that the submarine that was caught in a river flood some time ago?

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The USS COD has arrived in Erie's dry dock facility to undergo maintenance.

https://youtu.be/yj5Zv5LASQc

From what I remember the Cod is the only one that still has an intact pressure hull - the Pampanito is the only other one where it could possibly be brought back into use - they did make some cuts but the way they did it they could repair it and get water tight integrity again but her ability to dive much beyond a 100 feet was compromised - whereas Cod didnt have any changes

[Raellus]

Found a photo of Romanian Patriotic Guard troops using what appears to be a PM1910 water-cooled Maxim machinegun in the 1970s or '80s. These venerable weapons were used by most Warsaw Pact armies at one time or another and likely would have remained in reserve in significant numbers throughout the Cold War. Its replacement, the SG-43 Goryunov, would be even more common.

Also, this rare bird turned up in Libya in 2016.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/thi...6-b96de9150913

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[cpip]

There's an interesting Twitter feed, Calibre Obscura, who posts various photos taken of weapons in the Middle East and Africa. Some of it is modern, but the feed turns up some interesting odds and ends, like a desert camo painted Mosin-Nagant or a very prettily-kept PPsH-41.

Between the strange old weapons, and the fascinating one-off modifications that show up there, it's a good view, to me, of what the Twilight equipment would look like: extensive customizations and pressing anything random into service that still works.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Found a photo of Romanian Patriotic Guard troops using what appears to be a PM1910 water-cooled Maxim machinegun in the 1970s or '80s. These venerable weapons were used by most Warsaw Pact armies at one time or another and likely would have remained in reserve in significant numbers throughout the Cold War. Its replacement, the SG-43 Goryunov, would be even more common. -

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine listed 35,000 PM M1910 Maxims in inventory in 2011, which should give a sense of the scale of possible Cold War reserves of the weapon.

There would also be RP-46 machine guns hanging around, since some of those were encountered in Iraq during the most recent conflict there. That's the heavy-barreled, belt-fed version of the DP-27 that can still use the original's pan magazines. It's a bit heavier empty, but the much lighter ammo storage makes it more mobile overall. Taliban forces had the older pan-fed DPM.

Edit to add: honestly, one very solid reason for Russian antiques to hang around is that the Three-Line Cartridge, Model of 1891 is still in use today, so supplying old weapons with 7.62x54mmR ammo is easy. It's a lot harder to source things like .30-40 Krag or 6.5mm Shoenauer or 8mm Lebel if you keep other countries' antiques around.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine listed 35,000 PM M1910 Maxims in inventory in 2011, which should give a sense of the scale of possible Cold War reserves of the weapon.

Come to think of it, I remember seeing a photo of a Ukrainian soldier, kitted out in multi-cam fatigues and modern body armor, manning a PM M1910 Maxim in a bunker, within the last year or two. Thanks for jogging my memory.

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[Brit]

This (or similar)?
https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1223317491365163008

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brit

This (or similar)?

That's the one! Thanks. It's nice to know it wasn't just my imagination playing games with my memory.

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[Olefin]

FYI example of how old guns might get into a T2K game

Bermuda Regiment in 1996 still had large stocks of Sterling submachine guns and Lee Enfield No. 4, Mk 1 rifles as well as two 25 pounder guns and several SBML 2-inch mortars dating from WW2. They even had some old Greener military shotguns.

Have a feeling a lot of current and ex-British possessions have much the same story as to old weapons still stored away

[Matt Wiser]

People may want to check this site out:

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/


It highlights use of WW II-era equipment (aircraft, tanks, small arms, artillery, etc.) well after the end of the war. One example: Su-100s still being used in the Yemen War. Another: The huge arsenal found after the Grenada Invasion, and some of that was WW-II vintage. RDF Sourcebook users: Iran was still using Shermans and M-36 Tank Destroyers in the Iran-Iraq War (Some were found in Iraq after OIF), and still uses the M1 105-mm howitzer and the 155-mm M1 as well. Not to mention that StG-44s were found by U.S. and British Forces in Iraq (and some of the Syrian rebels also use 'em).

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

People may want to check this site out:

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/


It highlights use of WW II-era equipment (aircraft, tanks, small arms, artillery, etc.) well after the end of the war. One example: Su-100s still being used in the Yemen War. Another: The huge arsenal found after the Grenada Invasion, and some of that was WW-II vintage. RDF Sourcebook users: Iran was still using Shermans and M-36 Tank Destroyers in the Iran-Iraq War (Some were found in Iraq after OIF), and still uses the M1 105-mm howitzer and the 155-mm M1 as well. Not to mention that StG-44s were found by U.S. and British Forces in Iraq (and some of the Syrian rebels also use 'em).

Great site Matt - and I would add that for those using the East Africa Kenya Sourcebook you would find a lot of older weapons in Africa - not just what the 1st US Volunteer Mech Infantry Battalion brought with them. Africa is basically awash in older British, Soviet, Chinese, American and French equipment. Uganda would still be operating old Sherman tanks and there were T-34's in multiple African countries

[micromachine]

Love the ww2afterww2 site. Great info and the weapons from ww2 still are soldiering on in the modern era. The ROCN update program on the Gearing class is particulary interesting to me.

[rcaf_777]

Carrier Pigeons

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I have over the last year or so gotten very addicted to auto recovery/restoration channels on Youtube. Vice Grip Garage, Thunderhead 289, Dylan McCool, and Junkyard Digs...and so many others. I'm not much of a gearhead but watching their channels now when they do a "drive it out of its grave" video, the basics that they go through, I can predict what the issue is that's stopping a given vehicle from starting and usually get it right, based on prior recoveries they've done.

The one that got me really hooked was Thunderhead, Dylan (for at least 1 episode, I think) and Junkyard recovered and got a Ford F150 truck that had been parked since 1989 or thereabouts, just sitting, not moving, on an abandoned farm. The truck itself was from the early 1970s. With about 8 hours of work, with a tool kit, some automatic transmission fluid, and a scavenged radiator, improvised radiator hose, and scavenged starter coil, they got it to drive out of its grave. It's utterly flat tires held air; they drove it a couple of miles (one up, one back) before calling it a victory. But it ran, idled, etc.

The point of all of this is that aside from the Abrams, AFVs generally use similar versions of the same engine you'll find in most heavy trucks/equipment. If a couple of guys can in the space of a day with limited tools get a vehicle moving, I would wager that a team of motivated mechanics with proper equipment could get long parked and "abandoned" AFVs working and running, no problem. Would they be factory perfect? Hell no! But, take the M113 for instance; the US has tens of thousands of them still in inventory. Their engine is the same as used in many buses and other "commercial" applications. I think the idea of "Hey can we get those M47s running again is really damn cool. It's why in my "Florida JMC" idea, the Joint Military Command has a single M60 pulled from a display in front of a VFW up in north Central Florida. Now, sure, the main gun breach is cut, but still, it's mobile armored firepower against enemies who don't have any.

Just wanted to share that.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Carrier Pigeons

Of course!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/top-t...arrier-pigeons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKhdJd1Nu74

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Brit

Of course!

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/top-t...arrier-pigeons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKhdJd1Nu74

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_...gnation_System

I remember reading in the Harpoon rules that "Pigeon" had the "B" designation for Type of equipment which was later deprecated to allow use for communication security. However the coast guard used an experimental system where pigeons were trained to see orange in the water (life vests) and peck in the direction they saw it. I was always hoping they would get a letter back.

[kato13]

Drone and UAV discussion moved here
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6176

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kato13

Drone and UAV discussion moved here
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6176

thank you Kato!

[Olefin]

Another older vehicle you would find is if you go adventuring in the Dominican Republic - they operated the Landsverk L-60 tank until 2012. They actually had seen combat during the US intervention in the 60's including one of the few tank on tank battles ever in the Western Hemisphere when one got stupid and tried to take on an M48 Patton tank.

[Olefin]

FYI an interesting sidelight - Morpac Industries, Inc. in Burnaby, BC builds equipment that uses old Sherman tank chassis, suspensions, road wheels and tracks.

They have a huge source of tracks in stock, including ones that would fit Sherman tanks, as well as rubber road wheels for military-type carriers with long wearing steel rims. They also manufacture tracks as well.

Have to look at the Vancouver nuke strike but if they are out of the blast effects you could see them being a very desirable resource for the Canadian, US and Soviet forces in the area. Could be a good adventure idea for people using the Pacific Northwest module

[Brit]

I have seen Punt Guns in museums in The UK and seemingly in T2K: R/- (in The UK). However 'just' a pipe and...

"In the United Kingdom, a 1995 survey showed fewer than 50 active punt guns still in use. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 limits punt guns in England and Wales, and in Scotland, to a bore diameter of 1.75 inches (44 mm) (1 1/8-pounder). Since Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1897 there has been a punt gun salute every Coronation and Jubilee over Cowbit Wash in Cowbit, Lincolnshire, England. During the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II, 21 punt gun rounds were fired separately, followed by the guns all being fired simultaneously".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

It is 'remembered' from an old White Dwarf magazine Call of Cuthulu scenario but they said that Boyes anti-tank rifles could be bought / owned on a shotgun licence as they are smooth bore and thus 'OK' under English & Welsh Law. (The mag would date back to the 80's?). Buyer Beware!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Brit

I have seen Punt Guns in museums in The UK and seemingly in T2K: R/- (in The UK). However 'just' a pipe and...

"In the United Kingdom, a 1995 survey showed fewer than 50 active punt guns still in use. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 limits punt guns in England and Wales, and in Scotland, to a bore diameter of 1.75 inches (44 mm) (1 1/8-pounder). Since Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1897 there has been a punt gun salute every Coronation and Jubilee over Cowbit Wash in Cowbit, Lincolnshire, England. During the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II, 21 punt gun rounds were fired separately, followed by the guns all being fired simultaneously".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

It is 'remembered' from an old White Dwarf magazine Call of Cuthulu scenario but they said that Boyes anti-tank rifles could be bought / owned on a shotgun licence as they are smooth bore and thus 'OK' under English & Welsh Law. (The mag would date back to the 80's?). Buyer Beware!

Over in the Best That Never Was thread, I did up a French punt gun a couple of months ago. Unlike most, it is feasible to shoulder-fire as it's "only" six and a half kilos.

[Brit]

Not really 'out of mothballs' but... maybe similar vessels about?

"The Paraguayan Navy's Humaitá-class river gunboats may well be regarded as ancient by most modern standards, but their longevity pales into insignificance when compared to that Navy's Capitán Cabral (ex-Triunfo, ex-Adolfo Riquelme), which was first launched in 1907!".
http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot....r-gunboat.html
http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot....-gunboats.html