British Army 1990's What might have been...

[Louied]

My thoughts on the Gurkhas:

1) Divisional HQ w/Signal Regt (17th)
2) eight Inf Bns, perhaps a Para Bn but at least a Coy
3) three Bde HQ's & signal sqns (48th in Oman, 63rd & 99th in Hong Kong)
4) two Lt Regts RA
5) four Depot/Training Bns in Hong Kong or Brunei with a Bde HQ (26th)
6) An Engr Regt (four Sqns) and Logistic Regt (four Sqns)

All of the above is doable and was exactly what the Gurkhas fielded during the height of the Malayan Emergency & Confrontation.

Side note: I am assuming that besides embodying The Royal Hong Kong Regt (V), which was a RAC unit (HD Recce), a "Hong Kong Defence Regt" would be formed on the onset of the Sino-Soviet War.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

In a T2K context what's your thoughts on giving both the Welsh and Irish Guards a second Battalion, which would bring them into line with the other Foot Guards Battalions pre Options For Change? In theory one could also de-amalgamate the Blues and Royals to create a 'new' armoured Regiment and thus make a Guards Armoured Brigade possible (obviously the discussion about manpower would be a concern).

I don't see either the Irish or Welsh Guards getting a second bn, I don't think they would have the population base to support it. If anything I would say the 3rd Bn Grenadier Guards would be reformed.
Now I did think of a slight expansion. Just like the ninth Armd Bde, BAOR commanders wanted the re-establishment of a fourth rifle coy and an assault pioneer pl in each Inf Bn. Again I think that starting in October 1995 this may be feasible. As for extra Inf Bns I was thinking the following:

Each Div of Inf would be tasked to raise ONE Bn starting in November 1996

Guards Div = 3rd Bn The Grenadier Guards
- Third Battalion the Grenadier Guards, although older, is junior to the First and Second Battalions .... The companies from which the Third Battalion was derived were raised in Holland during the exile of King Charles II and did not serve in this country until after the formation of the original companies of the First and Second Battalions from Hansard

Scottish Div = 1st Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

Queen's Div = 4th Bn The Royal Regt of Fusiliers

King's Div = 1st Bn The York and Lancaster Regt

Prince of Wales's Div =2nd Bn The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regt

Light Div = 4th Bn The Light Infantry

As for the Household Cavalry, I don't see any "de-amalgamations". If anything I can see the following:
The Life Guards = Type 43 Armd Regt in Germany, a Sqn of Reservists added to make it a Type 57 Regt. Re-titled 1st Household Cavalry Regt
The Blues & Royals = Armd Recce Regt. One Sqn (FOX CVR (W)) to Special Dutie sForce/Op Candid. reinforced with two Sqns of Reservists. re-titled 2nd Household Cavalry Regt
The Household Cavalry Mounted Regt = Home Defence Recce Regt. Two Sqns joined by another two of Reservists and recruits just released from training. re-titled 3rd Household Cavalry Regt

[Rainbow Six]

In the 1990’s we were winding down our presence in Hong Kong in preparation for handover and that doesn’t change even in a V1 timeline with an ongoing Cold War. Maybe there’s scope for the HK Garrison being beefed up after the start of the Sino - Soviet War to bolster security but I don’t see much political desire for additional infrastructure, e.g. Brigade HQ’s. I could see there being one HK based HQ, with maybe another one existing on paper only (26th?). But I think the other one would need an alternative home. Maybe the Sultan of Brunei requests a Brigade rather than a Battalion (and is willing to cover the costs)?

Agreed on the formation of an additional unit in Hong Kong. IIRC the RHKR(V) was under the control of the HK Government (and by extension the Governor?) but there was also the Hong Kong Military Service Corps (HKMSC) which was under Army command and I believe had a Light Infantry Company which could have expanded at the outbreak of the Sino - Soviet War. Plus there’s the Royal Hong Kong Police.

I like the six extra Infantry Battalions. I think it’s proportionate.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I like the six extra Infantry Battalions. I think it’s proportionate.

Any thoughts on growth of the TA?

[Louied]

Chico,

That’s coming…there was a “TA ORBAT Review” 1988-9. In brief (I will get detailed later) there possibly would have been six more Inf Bns, two more HD Recce Regts, and other units. A modest increase but it was felt it was needed to shore up MHD and release regulars for NATO roles. There was also discussion of using the HSF as command cadres on Mobilisation for HD Coys

[Ewan]

[QUOTE=Louied;91901]

Scottish Div = 1st Bn The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

[QUOTE]

Good to The Cameronians back into the fight, as a toddler I was at their disbandment in 1968 at Douglas.

That said the TA company in Hamilton held their lineage.

[Fallenkezef]

Has anyone considered that the British army might, in the right circumstances, reform the Guards as an armoured brigade or even division? There is a precedent set for it.

Household cavalry retains it's recce role

Grenadier and/or Coldstream Guards are expanded to two battalions, one of mechanised infantry and one of tanks.

Option A: Reinforced brigade size formation with 4 guards infantry battalions and one armoured.

Option B: An division sized formation with 2 brigades.

1st Brigade: 2 battalions of Coldstream guards (1 tank, 1 infantry), 1 battalion of Welsh guards

2nd Brigade: 2 battalions of Grenadier guards (1 tank, 1 infantry) 1 battalion of Scots guards.

It would echo how the Guards where used during the second world war.

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Fallenkezef

Has anyone considered that the British army might, in the right circumstances, reform the Guards as an armoured brigade or even division? There is a precedent set for it.

Household cavalry retains it's recce role

Grenadier and/or Coldstream Guards are expanded to two battalions, one of mechanised infantry and one of tanks.

Option A: Reinforced brigade size formation with 4 guards infantry battalions and one armoured.

Option B: An division sized formation with 2 brigades.

1st Brigade: 2 battalions of Coldstream guards (1 tank, 1 infantry), 1 battalion of Welsh guards

2nd Brigade: 2 battalions of Grenadier guards (1 tank, 1 infantry) 1 battalion of Scots guards.

It would echo how the Guards where used during the second world war.

As I mentioned in a previous post, a Guards Armd Bde (one HCR & two Guards Bns) is possible but no way would a Div be formed or Guards Bns convert to armour. Five out of the eight Guards Bns had important MHD/continuation of Govt roles. In World War 2 Guards Bns were converted to armour because after Dunkirk there was a push to form more Armd Divs and it was felt that the Guards discipline and intelligence would make them quick and easy students. As soon as VE Day came the Guards were keen to rid themselves of tanks and get back to “proper soldiering”. You also have to remember that certain Coys ie Queen’s Coy 1 GG and Prince of Wales’s Coy 1 WG, to name two, had in their ranks all men over 6 feet tall. This would have to be considered….when 1 GG became the first Warrior Bn, I have read that Queen’s Coy was not too comfortable in their new role……lol.

[Louied]

Just a quick aside, the document I mentioned earlier, Reformation of A Guards Brigade in BAOR has been released to the public at Kew. I am guessing that it had been closed because of correspondence with Prince Phillip and now after his passing they opened it. I’ll try to get a copy.

I will be back with an update tonight on how, based on IRL, I structured BAOR for T2k.