Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[ToughOmbres]

From the recent 25 years ago updates...anyone care to speculate how many Albanian reservists will be fortunate enough to have SKS/SKS clones and how many will be issued Carcano rifles courtesy of Italy from World War II?

[chico20854]

According to this site, there's all kinds of old stuff in use there, especially among the militias!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

From the recent 25 years ago updates...anyone care to speculate how many Albanian reservists will be fortunate enough to have SKS/SKS clones and how many will be issued Carcano rifles courtesy of Italy from World War II?

Relatively few SKS - Albania produced only 15-20K of them. In the early 2000s, the most common weapons seized from illegal stockpiles that had been looted from armories were the AK-47, TT pistol, M56 submachine gun, and only as a fairly distant fourth the SKS. Especially because of the emphasis on partisan/guerilla warfare, I expect a lot of reservists would be issued SMGs to provide a base of fire, with one or two SKS in a squad as sharpshooters/designated marksmen.

[.45cultist]

Also, the NATO stockpile update by the Clinton Administration never happened in V1-2.2 canon. This means that the US has M1911A1's, M3A1's, M14's and M48A5's warehoused and not given to Turkey.

[ToughOmbres]

For V1 or 2 canon could we also assume there would be an expedited return of M1 Garand, M 1 Carbines and 1911's from Military Assistance Programs to Allies or would you as referee assume the small arms would be of limited use and left in place rather than devote resources to bring them back home?

[bash]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

For V1 or 2 canon could we also assume there would be an expedited return of M1 Garand, M 1 Carbines and 1911's from Military Assistance Programs to Allies or would you as referee assume the small arms would be of limited use and left in place rather than devote resources to bring them back home?

I don't think the government would bother trying to bring back such weapons. Before TDM there wouldn't be much of a need and after TDM there wouldn't be much capability.

Even if they came back to the US, ammunition production after TDM would be common NATO rounds to support the war, not oddball (relatively speaking) rounds for M1 Garands and Carbines.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by bash

I don't think the government would bother trying to bring back such weapons. Before TDM there wouldn't be much of a need and after TDM there wouldn't be much capability.

Even if they came back to the US, ammunition production after TDM would be common NATO rounds to support the war, not oddball (relatively speaking) rounds for M1 Garands and Carbines.

As far as .30-06, I think that there would be more around than you think, but in the civilian supply chain. .30-06 is a common hunting round in the US and to a lesser extent in the rest of the world, and commercial manufacturing has been going strong since the 1910s.

M1 descendants are also fairly common hunting weapons, so there may be less spare parts issues with issue of M1 Garands from government stocks or impounded civilian stocks. (I don't think this would happen until post-TDM, however.)

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As far as .30-06, I think that there would be more around than you think, but in the civilian supply chain. .30-06 is a common hunting round in the US and to a lesser extent in the rest of the world, and commercial manufacturing has been going strong since the 1910s.

M1 descendants are also fairly common hunting weapons, so there may be less spare parts issues with issue of M1 Garands from government stocks or impounded civilian stocks. (I don't think this would happen until post-TDM, however.)

Lake City loads 100,000 AP rounds or so every few years for body armor testing. the armor levels are based on the .30-06 AP penetration.

[bash]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

As far as .30-06, I think that there would be more around than you think, but in the civilian supply chain. .30-06 is a common hunting round in the US and to a lesser extent in the rest of the world, and commercial manufacturing has been going strong since the 1910s.

M1 descendants are also fairly common hunting weapons, so there may be less spare parts issues with issue of M1 Garands from government stocks or impounded civilian stocks. (I don't think this would happen until post-TDM, however.)

Like I said, before TDM there wouldn't be a need for M1s (Garand or Carbine) and after TDM there might be a need but little means to actually get them to the US. Post-TDM no one is going to spend valuable fuel to transport a bunch of rifles back to the US.

In terms of ammo production, the US would likely enforce the Defense Production Act as soon as US forces start fighting. So from 1996 onwards small arms companies are going to be spitting out NATO standard stuff (guns, ammo, maintenance kits, etc). Production of ammo etc for the civilian market will drop to a trickle.

The US getting a few tens of thousands of M1s will be a logistical challenge rather than a helpful addition. Every cleaning kit, stripper clip, and .30-06 round is one less produced that could be used for the US/NATO service weapons.

So I don't see the utility of the US trying to field M1s. I do however think those MAP recipient countries would be fielding them. Even if their front line forces had newer weapons they'd equip militias/conscripts/rear echelons with their old M1s. The sorts of places that got MAP weapons aren't seeing the same level of fighting as Europe or the Far East.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Also, the NATO stockpile update by the Clinton Administration never happened in V1-2.2 canon. This means that the US has M1911A1's, M3A1's, M14's and M48A5's warehoused and not given to Turkey.

He really did destroy a lot of guns in 1994-1995. I remember them melting down something like 250K M14 rifles and 500k M1911s. That broke my heart because they used to be sold as surplus.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

He really did destroy a lot of guns in 1994-1995. I remember them melting down something like 250K M14 rifles and 500k M1911s. That broke my heart because they used to be sold as surplus.

Also all the SEAL Stoners, the old M1911's and Thompsons in the FBI inventory. DOJ/ATF facilities might yield militia gear.