Supply Cache Idea...

[dragoon500ly]

While it is true that the canon material does not mention regional command bases. From a logical, organizational stand point there has to be some kind of intermediate level in between the field teams and Prime Base. After all, not every problem requires the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or the CEO to make the decision (LOL)!

This is my own view of how the Project is organized, your views may differ!!!

There is both a Prime Base and an alternate Prime Base that is frozen. Going with the amount of surveillance that the USSR/USA pulled on each other, any major dig had the chance of being observed and maybe pulling a ICBM or two. So Prime Base was dug in the Nevada high desert and Prime Alternate was located in a closed down "salt" mine. This was done to test both proposed methods. I have always felt that CoT would have some sort of pipeline into the intelligence agencies, so there would be some way to check on if the Russians had any knowledge of "something going on".

My Project covers Canada, the US and the northern states of Mexico. There are ten Regional Command Bases sited to support operations. Each RCB has 75-125 personnel. These are NOT field teams, these are the C3I, technicans, and research personnel. Any equipment they have is for their own use. They have access to the wake-up codes and locations of all teams, caches and supply bases in their area of responsbility only.

In addition to the RCBs, each region may have several Combined Teams, these are groupings of 2-12 different teams, charged with a specific mission: safeguarding and reactivating a nuclear power plant; securing a data storage site etc.etc.etc..

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix here (keep in mind I haven't read any of the MP books for a few years so my numbers might be out)...

There is one factor often overlooked in RPGs when it comes to rescuing people, the total number the rescuers can actually look after. So for example, a particular MP team may have the resources to rescue 300 people but it's often likely that 600 or 1000 are going to turn up looking for help.
Then again, they may have the resources for 300 and find that in their area only 80 people survive.

Considering that the Project was meant to awaken its teams 2-5 years or so after the wars end but they ended up sleeping for around 150-200 years I tend to think that they would have planned for maximum numbers of survivors and not minimum numbers. I do seem to recall that part of their mission was to get further supplies from the local region so they weren't going to carry "everything" in their supply caches.
I mention this more so for the RP side of things, it makes life more "interesting" for the Players but it is a part of game design that appears to have been given little thought.

My other thought is about technology. Given enough money and personnel, an R&D facility can cut quite a bit of time from research & development. To give an example, the Soviet Union poured a massive amount of money into theoretical physics after WW2 to the point were they exceeded the Western World in this field and they did it in the space of about 30 years if I remember correctly. Given the drive or resources, technology/equipment can be advanced beyond the standards expected in a society.

What this means is that if MP could purchase/set up various R&D facilities (and businesses to provide funding and so on), they could actually get superior technology than the current level in society. Keep in mind that the concepts for automatic weapons were developed in the late 1800s and a working assault rifle was made in 1911 (Fedorov Avtomat), a little less than 30 years later and the Germans (stimulated by wartime necessity) applied mass manufacturing concepts to the assault rifle idea and replaced the wooden stock with sheet metal stampings.

I've never been too thrilled with the time travel aspect of TMP so I'd happily substitute fuel cell tech (fuel cell concepts were understood as early as 1839 with the first practical fuel cell being made in 1889) for the fusion packs and so on. While fuel cell tech should allow 3-4 times the mileage of a tank of fuel that internal combustion motors provide, it still means stopping to get fuel... so the rules for T2k's distilling can be used if you desire!
Alternately, cold fusion could be allowed for the game, in theory it's supposed to work and I'd rather suspend my disbelief for that (i.e. pretending that superior R&D got it to work) than have the contradiction of Bruce Morrow going into the future and bringing back the fusion technology (and thereby 'inventing' it). The concepts for fusion were understood early enough, hence the atomic bomb.

In terms of funding/driving the tech, I can easily see the US government contracting to a Morrow Industries company to develop a particular concept, it's happened often enough in the real world. This means that the US Govt and Morrow would be working together with perhaps BEM himself having the better idea of why it was really being developed

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Considering that the Project was meant to awaken its teams 2-5 years or so after the wars end but they ended up sleeping for around 150-200 years I tend to think that they would have planned for maximum numbers of survivors and not minimum numbers. I do seem to recall that part of their mission was to get further supplies from the local region so they weren't going to carry "everything" in their supply caches.

I mention this more so for the RP side of things, it makes life more "interesting" for the Players but it is a part of game design that appears to have been given little thought.

Cynic,

I tend to think along the same lines about "rescue" supplies and the purpose of caches; while elaborate and huge caches are cool, I think they would be the exception to the rule (except for Specialist teams) and not devoted to relief supplies but reconstruction materials.

Regarding the idea of a "refugee camp in a box":

1) The Project's mission was reconstruction. Therefore, planning extensively for relief and rescue efforts is a case of "mission creep". That is, they can make provisions for additional capabilities beyond the core mission but at the almost direct expense of that mission.

2) Given the wakeup window of 3-5 years, it's doubtful anyone will need immediate assistance. If the government is recovered enough it's their responsibility to provide large-scale assistance through FEMA (and similar organisations in Canada, Australia, etc.). There will be NGOs like the American Red Cross already devoted to relief efforts. If there are, they will be far more capable than the Project at administering relief efforts and delivering supplies. On the other hand, if things are really bad then there's little the Project could do in the short term to mitigate these effects.

3) My personal view is the caches are to provide local sustainability for teams that cannot be supplied by the Group and regional logistical systems for whatever reason, not provide bulk supplies (which are stored in the permanent depots, according to TM 1-1). Further, at least for Recon/Recce units, teams are supposed to remain mobile to do their jobs because proportionally there are so few of them. Having teams engage in immediate disaster relief efforts ties them down and they can't engage in reconnaissance. Likewise other teams need to concentrate on their core missions and not get caught up in administering local relief efforts for thousands of people.

This also isn't meant to be a flame, but more asking if adding capability for refugee relief is putting the cart before the horse.


Tony

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Tony, basically I think the same way as you, I can't see the Project focusing so much effort on rescuing people and setting up huge caches to build refugee camps because I am of the understanding that the Project's mission was to provide a core group of people who remembered skills and knowledge from the pre-apocalypse. That is to say, their job was to check out what had happened and then decide who best to help - and their help consisted of teaching the survivors how to rebuild some semblance of their old society based on all the skills/knowledge they Team has along with whatever supplies they can get from the local area.

It seems redundant for MP to stash massive amounts of supplies to set up refugee camps when there are other organizations as well as the government itself who would already be doing that sort of thing. I see it as a case of MP's aim was to "fill in the gaps", not simply replace the government efforts. Recce teams should be doing exactly that, reconnaissance, science teams should be do the science stuff and so on and so on.

The game really takes off for me when these teams get involved in the rescue side of things knowing full well they do not have the resources to rescue everyone. That's when you start to get some really involved RP sessions because the players have to start coming up with ideas on how to get enough supplies, how to protect them and transport them and then how to stop somebody else taking them away from the people they're trying to help.

To me, TMP is about teams who find themselves out of their depth - they woke up too late, they have too little help, they have too few resources and they have too much to do. For me that's the challenge of the game, if the teams have too many supplies, it becomes too easy for the players.
As Tony said, this isn't a flame so much as a critique.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

To me, TMP is about teams who find themselves out of their depth - they woke up too late, they have too little help, they have too few resources and they have too much to do. For me that's the challenge of the game, if the teams have too many supplies, it becomes too easy for the players.
As Tony said, this isn't a flame so much as a critique.

Cynic,

As well, I'd like to be clear that I'm not advocating the Project should just be cold-blooded or stand around if people need help! Just that in 3-5 years after the war, it's probably not going to be an issue. Either A) the surviving government/NGOs will be doing what they can or B) the populations that can't feed themselves one way or another will no longer exist.

Likewise, I find the "developmental" challenges of TMP interesting, especially if there is a moral and ethical dimension added by scarce resources, a wildly different situation than expected, and so on. Forging an alliance of communities to defend against an onslaught of Krell/KFS/mutant hordes is classic TMP... but it's been done a few times.

My own Final Watch-based campaign hinged on convincing the Rebels and Reds to get along after 150 years of warfare, introduce democratic governance and abolish slavery in the Puget Sound. As the PCs were part of a Specialty: PSYOPs team their options tended to be based on mobilising public opinion and support in both camps instead of something more violent. (It was clear there was a real chance that violence would spark open war and/or civil war that would kill a good portion of the surviving population.)

Tony

[natehale1971]

I don't think you're getting the reason for 'refugee camp-in-a-box' that the supply cache concept was about...

The Recon team is suppose to go out and look around and send back reports to higher ups, telling them what they've found. But they will also need to be able to show that they can do SOMETHING for the people they've encountered during their missions.

Having a few luxury goods for trade is nice, but in the long run the people will see the project as nothing but 'good time boys and girls' who are focusing on lofty ideals and passing around the booze.

The idea of these supply caches would be to allow for the Recon Teams to set up a camp that would be used as not only a refugee camp, but also as a fledgling community that would attract the people with the skills needed to rebuild the Republic in the long run.

These camps would also be something of a way to boost morale, as anyone who has ever dealt with the government can tell you. Government recovery efforts SUCK. And notice the capitalized letters in the world "SUCK"... How long did it take to respond to Katerina? Yes that was due to the Local and State level of the chain dragging their feet and screwing around. The neighboring States (and hell cities) around Louisiana and New Orleans bounced back a hell of a lot quicker than New Orleans... Who basically had to rely upon FEMA to put things back together for... And even today we are seeing the waste and screw ups on how those resources were being used.

The Project would know this fact, and be planing for a way to use it to their advantage.

3 to 5 years post-TEOTWAWKI Event, FEMA would still be so totally overwhelmed that they would be so mortarboard that they wouldn't really know were to start to focus their recovery efforts.

By giving Recon Teams the ability to throw up refugee camps that woulds become the Core Communities of the Recovery effort would allow the FEMA resources to be deployed to where they are needed.

IE, the Project would be the Kick-in-the-Pants to get the recovery effort underway.

FEMA has the power to dragoon people as 'Human Resources' and put them anywhere they want. Even if that means breaking up families and putting people with the skills they need into places where they need them.

This alone would cause rebellions popping up all across the FEMA run camps. But a Project camp would do everything they can to keep families together, and thus have better morale and NOT needing heavily armed security to keep the peace (and keep the people in the camps from rebelling due to the fact that Mommy has been shipped to California and Daddy has been shipped to New York City because Mommy is a baby doctor and daddy is an engineer).

if you don't think FEMA has this power, please check it out. It's one of their questionable powers, that people who are Veterans or who work (or have worked) in the DoD are exempt from.

And is the source of the 'Displaced Person' program that has evolved into a form of slavery that created the problem that has risen with the New Confederacy...

The Project is a non-Totalitarian solution to FEMA and it's heavy handed way of dealing with mass emergency conditions.

And by giving Recon Teams the ability to be a hands-on recon of the area, and having the ability to put up a refugee camp WHERE NEEDED RIGHT NOW, is better than them just saying... We can help you sometime in the next three to six months. Even if the camp they can build would comfortably take care of 300 families for a set time, they can support larger numbers in the short-term necessitating them getting resupplied by FEMA or Regional support bases.

[natehale1971]

(Had my Roommates kidnap me for a little bit....)

Also the Refugee Camp wasn't meant to be operated by the Recon Team.

While the Recon Team sets it up since they are ON SITE and see what is needed, the camp would be operated and administered by specialists deployed form the Combined Operations Group and/or Area Operations Group...

These camps would be able to serve as not only distribution points for relief supplies... but they would also be perfect for organizing the survivors in a way that would let the Project KNOW what kind of skill pool they would have access too.

Another thing that i had forgot for putting in the cache, would be ballot boxes, and other things that would promote voting and electing local representatives.

Yes the Camp would have a Project Administrator, Project Security and Project Medical Staff who would operate as the core that would be dispatched... but they would be assisted by an elected 'Mayor', and elected Chief Constable and of course a local (if available) Chief Medical Examiner.

On the judicial arena.. elections for a Chief Judge, Chief Prosecutor and Chief Advocate would be necessary.

There is a lot of things we might be forgetting that would be needed for reestablishing a fully functioning representative republic with a strong democratic tradition.... To many today think we're a democracy, but the founders were adamant that we're A REPUBLIC, for as long as we can keep it.

And the Project was founded at a time that this was still taught in schools, and the education materials that would be made available for the schools that would be set up, would have the kinds of things that a turn of the last century 8th Grader would have to know to graduate (things that many college graduates today have difficulty knowing).

I'm going to set up a community thread that everyone can post their thoughts on just what is needed to create a self-sufficient society that would be the cornerstone for the government to rebuild the republic upon.

[dragoon500ly]

There is a lot to be said for both arguements. It's the 5 year mission profile that limits what can be done. So the question to be asked is, just what would be available 5 years after a nuclear exchange? If you want to use the Katrina example, the very things needed to sustain a survivor community ran out the quickest. Things like batteries, flashlights, bottled water, and all the way through to diapers and hand wipes. Now this was within a week of the storm hitting the coast, what would it have been like 5 years later, and in a TEOTWAWKI event?

Would FEMA have been able to haul supplies from one side of the country to the other? And remember, in a nuclear exchange one of the key targets would be communications nodes. So there is nothing beyond short haul railway, the interstate highway system is jammed with wreckage and blast damage at key locations. The various relief agencies would have been completely overwhelmed. Just how much aid could be moved around?

IMO, there is need for every team to have at least one "camp in a box". If only to help set-up or resupply an existing survivor community. I can even see "nests" of the CIAB located in areas that were planned to shelter large numbers of survivors, I can even see the arguement, that some of these CIAB would not be as well concealed as a regular supply cache. The goal is to help the survivors that the team encounters, to at least some degree. And going with the small numbers of personnel, the only other force multiplier would be supplies.

[mikeo80]

IMO, there is something we have not covered in the discussion. One of the building blocks that TMP was counting on was that there would be survivors with skills. There would be doctors, engineers, steel workers, etc. These people would still have the knowledge base to assist TMP in the rebuilding.

IMO, this is probably what did happen in the first 5 - 10 year after The Bang. These people with knowledge were probably the most important resource a survivor community had. A person who could design and help build a earthen log dam to help contain drinkable water would be a wonderfull asset.

But as time went on, the most important skills were two.

1) We have to grow food to feed our selves.

2) We have to protect that food from those who would steal it.

The technology of farming in the late 20th early 21st century is very crop specific and energy intensive. In the 5+ years after The Bang, someone who can grow beans and corn and maybe some herbs for spices and home grown remedies becomes critical. The blacksmith, the black powder maker become the backbone of whatever self defense force our hypothetical village can muster. Also the person who can help keep whatever farm animals available alive is another important person.

I would think that black powder weapons would start to be produced, at least in some small qualtities very quickly. Yes there are those who would have a stock pile of whatever rifle ammo they prefer. But 5+ years from The Bang, unless you are a SERIOUS survivor, your 30-30 or whatever is now a basically useless club. Even if you have a large re-loading capability, you are going to be running dry on ammo. What you have left is saved "for an emergency." Hense the black powder weapons industries.

I think the another building block for TMP was that WWIII was going to (d)evolve into counter city strikes very quickly. Look at the strike pattern of the Soviet response. I would guess that 150 -200 million DEAD is a fair guess on the day of The Bang. Another 50-60 million probably dead in those first horrible weeks. More die by disease during the five years until Morrow comes out.

I propose that TMP was probably looking at 10 - 20 million survivors spread in very small pockets of survival. If we follow some of the numbers that Nate and others have proposed, we have some where between 20 - 40 thousand TMP. If we take the top end of both numbers, we are looking at one TMP person for every 500 survivors.

If you mesh that with the idea that Morrow is spread VERY thin across the USA, then the ideas of Nate's and others dealing with supplies becomes doable. IMO, TMP was designed to start small, stay small for a LONG time. Keep just enough alive to start the rebuild...some time tomorrow. Today is just to survive. But we keep the engineer, and the chemist and the farmer alive until we are READY to rebuild. These survivors (with Morrow help) will teach their children these skills.

Just another of my two cents.

Mike

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

IMO, there is something we have not covered in the discussion. One of the building blocks that TMP was counting on was that there would be survivors with skills. There would be doctors, engineers, steel workers, etc. These people would still have the knowledge base to assist TMP in the rebuilding.

Actually Mike...

This is one of the biggest reasons why i stated that TMP set up the 'Camp in a Box' as it's being called. These camps would allow TMP to find out WHO the survivors are and find out what skill-sets they possess and how best to use them during the rebuilding.

While FEMA camps would be doing the same thing, FEMA camps would be using (or abusing) their ability to redistribute Human Resources as the government administrators felt best (especially with the fact that FEMA has their own plans for breaking up families as they see fit).

Thus making the Project Camps a lot more preferable when compared to the Government run recovery operation. While TMP was meant to help the government rebuild after a TEOTWAWKI Event... it was going to need to be able to offer something that would allow it to continue operations with the kind of draconian laws that would be in effect with FEMA running the show.

Even the President will end up answering to the 'shadow government' in Mouth Weather... thus my feeling that TMP and Snake-Eaters were protected by pre-TEOTWAWKI Executive Orders, the same thing that gives FEMA all that power. Reagan had rolled the most draconian Executive Orders back, but Clinton had brought them back with a vengeance.

Thus the way the Displaced Person (DP) population in the 'New Confederacy' became Slaves in the same way that Indentured Servants became Slaves in the North American Colonies during the Colonial Period. And what caused the formation of Maxwell's Militia when the National Guard rebelled against the draconian measures that FEMA and Mount Weather were undertaking. And much to the Militia's heartbreak, gave the 'new confederacy' protection to set up a system that was totally against the ideals that the American Republic was founded upon.

Thus the two largest of the United States successor states are the Confederated American States (aka New Confederacy) and the Allied American States (aka Maxwell's Militia)... With the New Presidencies who lay a direct claim to the legacy of the United States by retaining the name of the country and constitution.

Including, ironically enough, the FEMA enclave Shadow Government centered around Mount Weather. Which includes parts of the pre-war states of West Virginia, Virgina and Maryland that is connected to the Potomac River to provide access to the sea.

The FEMA Enclave has many of the characteristics of New Confederacy, Maxwell's Militia and the New Presidencies... and giving messages and 'orders' to the various New Presidencies scattered all across the remains of the country (and most of the New Presidencies just give FEMA and Mount Weather lip service and 'tributes' every year to keep FEMA Overseers from showing up to screw things up).

Kentucky Free State isn't the only major threat to TMP that could also be a good asset in rebuilding the United States. FEMA and Mount Weather would be an excellent asset in Rebuilding the East Coast if paired up with Prime Base... the KFS could easily become the 'Arsenal for Democracy' in providing the industrial base for reconstruction (and the fight against the Warriors of Krell).

[natehale1971]

Something I've been thinking about... When a volunteer joins the Morrow Project, they would look forward to their retirement after the Project has done it's monumental task. Many of the volunteers would have something in their lives that they would not want to just loose (family heirlooms and the like).

Thus I had always allowed for the PCs to come up with the kinds of personal belongings that would be for their HOMES when the project is over. And all this stuff would be stored in a cache along with building materials so they could build their new homes when everything was done and over with.

The way I've been thinking of setting up the supply caches using the ideas started by Kato has given me a lot of ideas for doing something like this.

My question is this.. would it be better for each team member to be given a cargo container of their own, or have all of the personal belongings put into cargo containers as needed?

One of the reasons i ask this, is for those volunteers who had beloved pets (or family) that they did not wish to be parted from. I had always felt that those who are married with children would have their families placed in Cryo with the agricultural or medical teams where they would work as 'general support' personnel since the Project tried to keep everything in the family.

Another idea would be a secondary bolthole holding loved ones and pets... or even have that secondary bolthole being the location of the cache holding all of their personal belongings and the materials for building homes.

[helbent4]

Adding the supply and administration of camps, even a "camp in a box", is a significant burden for the Project, which seems to have enough on its plate already. There are other organisations and people better suited to taking care of refugees, why not let them? (Unless I'm somehow missing the point.)

On the other hand, I do see that once specialists and key personnel are identified, they will need to be housed. For the most part, they will already have housing or accommodation of a sort, but if the Project needs to set up a colony of sorts (say, to staff a Project manufacturing facility that's geographically isolated) then staff will need shelter. But most of the time, as it says in TM 1-1 people will still use pre-war structures.

Moving along, I've allowed for a personal cache per team (not per person but one per team). As for dependents and close families, while the teams were dispersed, there is nothing saying there are also bulk storage facilities with hundreds, if not thousands of cryotubes (or scaled-up equipment). Allowing for family would give personnel an extra personal stake in the Project's success, not to mention a natural gratitude for helping their loved ones survive.

Tony

[natehale1971]

The 'camp in the box' would be administered by 3 project personnel (administrator, doctor, security specialist) who are assisted by locals they are training to do the bulk of the labor. And those three personnel wouldn't be permanent if they can help it. One of the ideas for the camp in a box would be a 'intake' location for the project.. the project personnel wouldn't be from the field teams, but support/specialty teams. I had an idea for a loose type of team who'd rotate between the camps providing administrative and health & medical care. but felt that the three project personnel would allow for the best administrative care. the doctor would operate as a primary care physician, and would either send those who are 'out of his scope' to the health & medical facility for advanced care.

This actually would fit into how the project could easily work.

[Matt W]

I have (auxiliary) vehicles for your "camp in a box"

BIKE AMBULANCES

http://www.eranger.com/products/health/ambulance.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcF7D...eature=related

FIRE BIKES

http://www.bikeinsurance.net/news/fire-bikes-uk-trial

[Matt W]

I have (auxiliary) vehicles for your "camp in a box"

BIKE AMBULANCES

http://www.eranger.com/products/health/ambulance.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcF7D...eature=related

FIRE BIKES

http://www.bikeinsurance.net/news/fire-bikes-uk-trial

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

The 'camp in the box' would be administered by 3 project personnel (administrator, doctor, security specialist) who are assisted by locals they are training to do the bulk of the labor. And those three personnel wouldn't be permanent if they can help it. One of the ideas for the camp in a box would be a 'intake' location for the project.. the project personnel wouldn't be from the field teams, but support/specialty teams. I had an idea for a loose type of team who'd rotate between the camps providing administrative and health & medical care. but felt that the three project personnel would allow for the best administrative care. the doctor would operate as a primary care physician, and would either send those who are 'out of his scope' to the health & medical facility for advanced care.

This actually would fit into how the project could easily work.

Nate,

I could see this as accommodation for the people who are doing work on Project contracts and so on. Not a refugee or a transit camp in the traditional sense. (Such would either be unneeded or already established.)

Still, I think it might be better to look towards more permanent housing than a temporary camp, but better than nothing.

Tony

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Nate,

I could see this as accommodation for the people who are doing work on Project contracts and so on. Not a refugee or a transit camp in the traditional sense. (Such would either be unneeded or already established.)

Still, I think it might be better to look towards more permanent housing than a temporary camp, but better than nothing.

Tony

the camps aren't meant for permanent housing (either for those working with the project or those that Recon Teams encounter and in desperate need for a place to stay and get help)... but are temporary. prompting the people to work harder at building their own homes and pull themselves out of the basic living standards that you'd find in a camp.

[robj3]

I agree fully with the concept of the population assistance cache as outlined in the initial post.

The team may wake up in the middle of a disaster. If not, then the supplies could be allocated to the reconstruction effort.

Regardless, teams are able to offer prompt substantial assistance to locals which must be useful in establishing goodwill for the Project.

The base unit for supply caches should be the intermodal container,
as Richard mentioned upthread.

This enables pre-loading at Project warehouses, and supplies require minimal
concealment - they blend in with regular road and rail freight. For maximal access to all the nooks and crannies caches and boltholes will be placed, sticking with 20' containers as the base unit might be good (the only problem I can see with the 40', 45' and 53' containers).

With regard to the amount and location of supplies, this depends on how much independence of action field teams are going to need (weeks? months? a year without resupply?). There are game balance and plotting implications here - but I think that game refs/PDs should be able to cope with an apparent excess of gear.

Despite Bruce, I don't think the Project is blessed with perfect precognition; the Project must then plan for a broad range of contingencies (e.g. nuclear war the most likely way civilisation could end, but not the only one; how bad the 3-5 years after environment will be will also vary). So I would tend to be generous with supplies. Logistic support from area/regional bases can't be assumed.

The most extreme scenario is that Project team members are going to repopulate the world - that there are no other human survivors.

[I don't think the Project should be capable of coping with a total biospheric collapse option (caused by nearby supernova, gamma-ray burst, major impactor or gravitational wrenching by rogue whatever, etc). Game over; everyone dies].

At the low end of the range is the nebulous (and controversial?) threshold for Project activation.

A reasonable level would seem to be 'limited' nuclear war scenarios with near total destruction of key industrial infrastructure (>95% of oil refining, chemical plants, etc.) and an initial (to one year) mortality of ~30-40% of the pre-attack population. This would also fit with a 'Black Death' style pandemic.

Sorry about topic drift.


Rob

[natehale1971]

Thanks Rob... you hit the nail on the head on WHY there is so much there. The Project planned for alot of things, but they KNEW that human nature being what it is, that it's better to have something than not have it at all when you need it!

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by robj3

The team may wake up in the middle of a disaster. If not, then the supplies could be allocated to the reconstruction effort.

Regardless, teams are able to offer prompt substantial assistance to locals which must be useful in establishing goodwill for the Project.

A reasonable level would seem to be 'limited' nuclear war scenario with near total destruction of key industrial infrastructure (>95% of oil refining, chemical plants, etc.) and an initial (to one year) mortality of ~30-40% of the pre-attack population. This would also fit with a 'Black Death' style pandemic.

Rob,

The Project is going to be activated 3-5 years after a major disaster, not weeks or months. At that point, is there still going to be an immediate crisis?

Refugee aid seems to be a kind of "primary" function, not the kind of top-level cadre/reconstruction the Project is geared towards. No one says the Project wants to deliberately see anyone starve, but if it's still a problem three to five freakin' years after the war, then it's likely to be completely outside the scope of the Project's resources to alleviate except in a limited way unless 100% of the supplies go towards that end (and even then, I don't think you could dig enough holes to make a difference).

To be clear, while I don't think refugee relief is tenable as a Project capability, I do agree the proposed caches are a solid idea! It's not an issue of earning goodwill by offering prompt assistance, it's a matter of defining the Project's "core" mission and then keeping focus. Refugee aid seems like its really widening the core mission.

I also agree the Project seems to be aimed towards a limited nuclear exchange instead of the typical "total destruction" scenario. It seems to me isolated teams (no matter how well armed) aren't optimally organised to cope with a complete loss of civil order, and there doesn't seem to be enough resources to rebuild a completely destroyed industrial infrastructure.

Tony

[robj3]

Tony Stroppa wrote:

The Project is going to be activated 3-5 years after a major disaster, not
weeks or months. At that point, is there still going to be an immediate crisis?

Contingency planning. A team could wake up in the middle of a famine, flood, wildfires, etc. etc.

Just because civilization has ended doesn't mean that something else can't go wrong. The project has a 'global' mission but has to respond to local problems.

I also agree the Project seems to be aimed towards a limited nuclear
exchange instead of the typical "total destruction" scenario. It seems to
me isolated teams (no matter how well armed) aren't optimally organised to
cope with a complete loss of civil order, and there doesn't seem to be
enough resources to rebuild a completely destroyed industrial infrastructure.

That's not my point, but I wasn't explicit.
A limited exchange represents the minimum disaster level ('the low end of the range') the Project should be able to respond to.

The extant game material is weighted towards field teams for play purposes, I think.
A supply/support depot based scenario (Morrow Project + MASH/China Beach/Sgt. Bilko??) might be someone's cup of tea.


Rob

[LBraden]

hmm 4077th in TMP, now that sounds interestingly fun, just need to get done the Jeep and the Deuce and a half done up before I start drawing it.

But yeah, I have been working on "light" versions of that supply base from Sarnman project.

[Matt W]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

While it is true that the canon material does not mention regional command bases. From a logical, organizational stand point there has to be some kind of intermediate level in between the field teams and Prime Base. After all, not every problem requires the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs or the CEO to make the decision (LOL)!

.

Page 34 of TM1-1 seems a pretty clear indication that regional command installations are an option (it also makes me suspect that the creators of the game didn't always read each others contributions,. But that's another matter). Prime Base is mentioned on this page - along with a suggestion that there is a second base of similar function - and then the description of installations continues to the following

"The second type of installation is that of a permanent depot/base. These installations are scattered throughout the country and may be either manned or automated. The purpose of such bases is to resupply and support the Morrow teams as needed. They carry complete stocks of materials and equip,ent. The stocks included the materials to help start man back on the road to civilization and include construction equipment and materials as well as full libraries on microfilm. The MARS-ONE vehicles are stored in such bases and include very large arsenals of weapons and ammunition. Installations of this type should be limited to a maximum of 10."

"Another type of installation is of a more specialized nature. These are the bases for the specialist teams and include complete farms, hospitals, supply bases and power stations"

(my italics)

Originally Posted by robj3

The extant game material is weighted towards field teams for play purposes, I think.
A supply/support depot based scenario (Morrow Project + MASH/China Beach/Sgt. Bilko??) might be someone's cup of tea.

I suspect that a campaign based around a "supply base" could be interesting.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by robj3

Tony Stroppa wrote:

Contingency planning. A team could wake up in the middle of a famine, flood, wildfires, etc. etc.

Just because civilization has ended doesn't mean that something else can't go wrong. The project has a 'global' mission but has to respond to local problems.

Rob

Rob,

That's a worthwhile sentiment, no one is arguing that the Project isn't going to try and help whoever they can, however they can.

Please keep in mind there is a serious danger of mission creep, of losing focus if too many contingencies are taken into account. As well, we need to keep in mind a few things to remain within the realm of plausibility:

1. While the Project has a lot of resources available, they are not actually unlimited. That is, they must be paid for in some sense.
2. All these resources not only need to be paid for, they need to be pre-emplaced in some fashion; re-supply/replenishment is going to be problematical, at least at first, so we're talking about caches and stockpiles.
3. Contingency planning in this case is a zero-sum game; every ton of material devoted to refugee aid is one less available for reconstruction, the Project's core mission.

I read some of the numbers posted earlier on this list. According to Lee, a 90-day (3 month) food supply for only 3,000 people is 405,000kg. That's 27 shipping containers worth, for a few thousand people. Imagine the space that takes up! To help 3,000 people for 3 months.

Wouldn't it be more worth it to devote that 405,000kg/27 container loads to reconstruction? I agree it would be expedient to be able to hand out food or other aid immediately, but it wouldn't be more than a token unless a serious amount of Project capacity and resources were re-purposed from reconstruction to aid, which seems to defeat the purpose of the Project in the first place.

As for the destruction level, it's hard to see how the Project could function in the book scenario of a full thermonuclear/biological/chemical war, if you treat it like a thought exercise. Isolated teams, little in the way of industrial infrastructure, well-armed as individuals but not much more. Not the optimal strategy for an all-out war. Which to me would be organising many Project field teams into brigade group-sized units clustered around highly-automated industrial facilities in areas that are agriculturally self-supporting. Note, I don't normally advocate such a highly militarised Project other than as a thought-exercise for what would work best after an all-out war.

As Matt mentions, the Depots actually could be part or mostly industrial facilities. This would make sense, and provide a backup capability for the "worst-case" scenario. Still not optimal, but much better than nothing!

Tony

[natehale1971]

Also a reason for these kinds of supplies goes back to the fact that a team might just wake up during or right after TEOTWAWKI event, and need to do SOMETHING to help people.

But even if they don't need the 'Camp in a Box' for refugees... the equipment would still be definitely be put to good use that would go a long way into improving not only survivors lives where they get used, but improve project public relations ("hey, these guys are here to help.. and they've built a clinic/school in our town").

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Also a reason for these kinds of supplies goes back to the fact that a team might just wake up during or right after TEOTWAWKI event, and need to do SOMETHING to help people.

But even if they don't need the 'Camp in a Box' for refugees... the equipment would still be definitely be put to good use that would go a long way into improving not only survivors lives where they get used, but improve project public relations ("hey, these guys are here to help.. and they've built a clinic/school in our town").

Nate,

I'm not trying to be a big meanie or anything, but on one hand the whole point was that teams would not be activated right after the war. Primarily because of concerns over radiation or disease, but as a side effect the immediate crisis would also be over.

On the other, it's an issue of what I keep trying to bring up: mission creep. The food requirement alone is astounding. 405 metric tons (27 container loads) of food alone just to keep 3,000 people alive for 3 months. It's a "zero-sum" game, where almost every kilo of refugee aid is taken at the direct expense of reconstruction.

Let others who are better equipped handle the refugees. If there is no one, then it's not likely something the Project can handle anyways except in a limited way. It's not a matter of what will be appreciated, it's that including sizable stocks of refugee aid literally hamstrings the Project.

As for the design of the supply base, hey, I'm going to use that for my game, for sure. a "camp in a box" will be useful as well for housing Project personnel and contractors.

Tony

[natehale1971]

The food issue is something i've been working on. Just because we can't hold enough food for 3000 people for 3 months does not change the fact something like this is necessary.

Just because the plan is NOT to make up during or during the immediate aftermath of TEOTWAWKI Event. Accidents happen. And planning for those accidents are a hell of alot easier than not. That's why we have lifeboats on our ships. Even though an aircraft carrier is built so that when the flight deck reaches water level it will float for several hours. But we still had enough lifeboats for more than double the crew. And that's not counting the liberty boats, and other embarked boats we have aboard. You have an access of them so that if anything is lost, you have plenty of replacements.

It goes back to the fact of "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" principle.

And the one thing about the project is, they have the time to put all this together... And they would have the time to take the long range preps to set up each of these 'camp in a box' concepts. Their only fear is these places getting uncovered.

That would keep them from setting them into places that would be easy to stumble onto. Such as buying property were they are located to keep them from getting bought by some developer... Such as front companies that are developers who are going to build something, but then go out of business... that's always a good cover.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

It goes back to the fact of "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it" principle.

And the one thing about the project is, they have the time to put all this together... And they would have the time to take the long range preps to set up each of these 'camp in a box' concepts. Their only fear is these places getting uncovered.

Nate,

No matter how well planned or how much time it has to prep, the Project doesn't (or at least realistically shouldn't) have unlimited space or probably even funding (although I agree that this planning can be done relatively cheaply). Therefore a better principle is ""you can't do it all".

Refugee relief, while a useful PR effort, is not part of the Project's core mission. Otherwise the Project would be activated right after the war. This is not a situation that for want of a nail the shoe was lost, because not having it won't negatively affect Project operations in a direct way. (There are a host of indirect factors that might affect the Project, but we can't cover all bases!)

That said, I see the "camp in the box" as feasible and desirable, not just for refugees but for Project personnel. Shelter is not going to be as bulky and the materials can always be re-purposed. In my own game, one group of players is setting up a Project base of operations and rebuilding a destroyed community for political reasons, having this material would make things a lot simpler. The campaign is based on Final Watch, so this is a cooperative effort between the Reds and Rebels, basically a joint effort between former enemies run by the Project and used as their base.

The sheer amount of food and supplies? I can see a token issue of a 3-month supply for 3,000 on the Regional level, but not something for teams or Groups to worry about.

Tony

[natehale1971]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. the 'camp in a box' isn't 'doing it all'... it's something that would allow a team in a pinch to be able to DO SOMETHING. Not everything. Just because you can set up a camp and keep the people fed for three months isn't going to solve all problems.

Hell, doing that actually ties the team down. I came up with the idea for 'Camp in a Box' as it's become known as a way for the Recon Team to be able to do SOMETHING to help locals when they wake up, and allow locals to feel like they are doing something to better their condition. I never intended for the team to manage or run the camp.

Having the food there is not 'trying to do everything'... and seeing that the Project is operating on a long-term basis they could easily take the time to build things up and set up caches all around the country. because in all honesty, it's the only way that the project could do anything they are attempting to do.

Thus giving the teams the flexibility to do their jobs. That's what 'camp in the box' is all about. Giving flexibility to a team. They can use the 'camp in a box' for refugees or setting up a project community.

But I'm a big believer in the idea that if the project is doing something for it's own people, they are doing it for the people they are helping. You don't have the Project personnel and contractors living good, while the people you are helping are living in squallier. That just makes the people you are trying to help feel resentment that you are keeping the best stuff for yourself.

Thus i came up with the 'Camp in the Box' so that the Team could give locals some of the 'perks' that the Project would be using for their own people as well. A bridge between the two worlds, showing that soon as we get all this done, everyone can have access to the same stuff if you work for it.

[robj3]

Tony,

You seem to assume that supplies can be used for one thing only.

Stockpiled food and temporary shelter are multi-purpose items.

In terms of 'unlimited resources', the Project has fusion power and cryotubes.
Depending on whether or not you follow canon slavishly, they also have
weapons of mass destruction. The Project must be extremely well resourced to have such these!

How much gear is too much for a given team?
As I stated earlier, some decision about team endurance needs to be made with regard to consumables (food, other consumables e.g. ammo, spare parts). Three months seems a reasonable minimum. The camp in a box cache
may end up being used by the team in the worst case.

Thinking more broadly, what is the Project set up to do? What does
'recovery' mean?
From Quarantelli 1999:

http://www.udel.edu/DRC/preliminary/pp286.pdf

Reconstruction (rebuild infrastructure)
Restoration (of physical and social environment)
Rehabilitation (of the survivors)
Restitution (governance rather than settling claims of loss in the Morrow setting!)

The Project's activity has to cover all these options to some extent.
I do not agree with the 'disaster relief is mission creep' concept.


Rob