USS Saratoga Fate

[Olefin]

Well then I will work on it - and probably shouldnt respond to posts late at night too - might have been just a wee bit tired when I read the part about laughing at my timeline - which I am betting a lot of people wouldnt like to have as a comment about their post, no matter what the delivery was.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth remembering that Targan is a moderator and has taken on a lot of the duties of running this forum. If he speaks up about something, we should all shut up and listen.

[Olefin]

First off dont tell people they need to shut up and listen. Thats rude and doesnt do anything but basically make people pissed and write off what you said.

And second as a moderator he should know that posts here deserve some kind of respect - have been a moderator on other forums and I have never told anyone, no matter what they posted, that I thought something they posted was foolish unless they were trying to pick a fight, which is exactly what you just tried to do with what you just posted.

Disagreement is one thing and thats fine.

Saying something is laughable is not.

And for the record what I was saying about those two modules was directed at the modules themselves and the people who created them as not being able to fit in with the rest of the canon they created, in my opinion.

Notice it says in my opinion.

And as Gary Gygax has said canon is only canon only as far as it is concerned with the particular DungeonMaster who is running the campaign.

I have heard of very good T2000 campaigns that never once set foot in Poland and were completely set in Iran and the Middle East. Or where Omega never happened and the US and its allies, with local offensives, drove the Russians out and linked back up with cut off parties in 2001 to 2002.

Hardly canon - but so what? So if in the timeline I propose the drought doesnt happen and Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped go out the window - then they do.

And if in yours the US falls apart as per those modules and its Mad Max/Aftermath on the highways - then it does.

But no one should be told to shut up and listen or have someone say what they said is laughable - that just makes them say screw this and find something better to do - and there goes another T2000 player or campaign or potential module creator.

[kiltedguard]

Wow...tough series of posts to follow, but I'll throw my two cents in there. My father was posted to the Sara(toga) in '78 as squadron complement. He worked on avionics. Anyway...at THAT point the Sara was quite long in the tooth. The gradual corrosion of the salt water on her hull had thinned it out to the point where...on several occasions...if the harbor wasn't especially deep and if the fuel stores (Since she was still a bunker oil fired ship), were still fairly full, she would take on water and settle on the silt. He happened twice in Jacksonville/Pensacola, and once in Naples, Italy.

My point is...though...I can find no reference in the TW2k references to the Saratoga, I'd let you all know that IRL he duty station was as part of the Med. Battle Group and she was he regular station. She likely would have either tangled with enemy forces in the Med. or been diverted to "The GAP" to engage Soviet North Fleet forces. With her hull in the condition that it was, a single solid missile impact would have broke her keel. Another carrier would have had to recover what was left of her airborne fighters and that would be that for the Sara.

[James1978]

The Saratoga went into the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1980 for a SLEP overhaul that lasted 28 months. Material-wise, she wasn't the same ship after the SLEP that she was in 1978.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm going to post one more fixup of Saratogas disposition because I just read it, and it reads dumb... so here we go:


My thoughts on the Saratoga being where it is were based on the idea that she'd been working the southwest Atlantic, near Florida, and she and her battle-group had been ordered to stop convoys of Division Cuba from reaching the coast of Texas. She got into a shooutout with Soviet and Cuban surface elements and while she broke the back of Soviet Naval operations in the region and virtually destroyed the last of the "official" Cuban navy, she absorbed an anti-ship missile hit and was severely damaged. Realizing a ship that could maybe someday be put back in action was preferable to a ship that was a natural reef her commander ran her aground in the shallows off of Fort Jefferson, approximately 80 miles west of Key West. As most of her planes were already airborne as part of strike packages operating against the remains of the Soviet/Cuban ships, performing SAR and CAP duties, these remaining aircraft were diverted to land bases - specifically NAS Key West and Homestead AFB.

While these planes and helos were initially a boon to MILGOV in South Florida, most were attritted due to mechanical failures (due to fewer and fewer critical spares), operational loss over Cuba, and finally a simple lack of fuel. The tiny MILGOV enclave in Key West maintains a lone SH-60 and a pair of F/A18Ds in flyable condition with a reserve of fuel for contingency situations.

The Saratoga's remaining crew did an able job of damage control, and there is a contingent of Marines and a skeleton crew of sailors on-board to maintain the ship. However, again, multiple hurricanes and general neglect have taken a hard toll on the once-proud carrier.

While the ship is marginally operational and, against most threats very well defended, it is a tempting target for New America and raiders in general. How long it will sit unmolested is anyone's guess.

[kiltedguard]

Originally Posted by James1978

The Saratoga went into the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1980 for a SLEP overhaul that lasted 28 months. Material-wise, she wasn't the same ship after the SLEP that she was in 1978.

The SLEP program was a ships systems and equipment overhaul and upgrade. Though some work MAY have been done on the hull. The ship was launched in 55, making her already 23 years old in '78. Even with the SLEP program, which was botched at the navy yard in Philly and required additional work, that would have made her 40 years old by '95 and near the end of even the SLEP program's project life span. No overhaul program can compensate for the effects of salt water on the ship's structure over the course of 4 decades.

She was decommissioned in 1994, which would have made her a candidate for recommissioning and deployment in a reasonable amount of time, but her lifespan on the battlefield would have been short.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kiltedguard

Though some work MAY have been done on the hull. The ship was launched in 55, making her already 23 years old in '78. Even with the SLEP program, which was botched at the navy yard in Philly and required additional work, that would have made her 40 years old by '95 and near the end of even the SLEP program's project life span. No overhaul program can compensate for the effects of salt water on the ship's structure over the course of 4 decades.

Exactly right. Replacing the hull is also a MASSIVE undertaking and you may as well just build a new ship.

I think the most qualified person to speak on this subject though would be Bluedwarf - an engineer and marine architect.

[kiltedguard]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Exactly right. Replacing the hull is also a MASSIVE undertaking and you may as well just build a new ship.

I think the most qualified person to speak on this subject though would be Bluedwarf - an engineer and marine architect.

You mean I can haz cheezburger?

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I don't think it's your idea or opinions - it's your delivery.

Delivery really does matter. I’d go so far as to say that delivery is 90% of the message. If a member of the forum wishes to impress with the thickness of his skin, I strongly advise going over to NPR where that sort of thing has a value. Once in a while, we’re all going to see our gentlemanly demeanor slip. I’m no exception. Nonetheless, this isn’t where we show off thickness of skin. We discuss ideas.

[Olefin]

Delivery and thickness of skin has already been changed.

[Webstral]

I agree with everyone who has claimed that GDW oversimplified the naval picture in Twilight: 2000. It's something we have to live with. Personally, I think attempts to flesh out the naval picture are commendable.

If you are a canon purist, that’s fine. Say so and let everyone else talk. Sit at the next table and listen, if you so choose. Constant reminders that you’re a canon purist serve no good purpose except to irritate the people trying to have a constructive conversation. Say it once and let it go.

As for folks looking to improve on the naval picture, be ready to have your rationale for a given aspect called into question. That’s what we do here. If your answer is “That’s how I like it”, that’s fine. But if you are going to give a rationale, be prepared to have it called into question. Be an adult about both the calling into question and having your rationale called into question, and we’ll all get along fine. Allow each other the occasional lapse, and we’ll all get along spectacularly.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Delivery and thickness of skin has already been changed.

I appreciate your efforts. You're not the only intended recipient of my message. Some of the members who have been here longer than you need a reminder.

[Rainbow Six]

A snippet I just came across skimming through the Med Cruise Module...(page 16)

Gibraltar was the base from which NATO launched the convoy in support of Turkey in June 1997, and was the base from which the carriers operated when retaliatory air strikes were launched against Greece after that convoy was attacked of Izmir

Same page confirms that most Naval vessels survived the nuclear strike on Gib

Most of the Naval vessels had enough warning of the strike to get out of harm's way

The air strikes on Greece took place on 29 June 1997 and the module references carriers (plural), so that suggests there were at least two Carriers (not neccessarily US) active in the Med several weeks after the battles of the Kola Pensinsula in early June 1997. Given Kiltedguard's (are you a Scotsman by the way? ) statement about the Saratoga's duty station it's possible Saratoga was one of those two.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

To be honest, I just picked the Saratoga 'cause I like the name and her history, I live in Florida hence her being run aground here, and the idea of something as big and looming as an aircraft carrier as an adventure locale is too neat to pass up. I could have just as easily made it a super-freighter full of vital war materiel, a different carrier, a Soviet carrier, a different location, etc. etc.

It'd probably be "cooler" if it was a CV-N, then there'd be power and a real rationale for people still living there, but that was already dealt with in Satellite Down, which was IMO not a great module. The premise is neat - multiple factions need that satellite data, and it's under the gun of a crazy guy with lots of weapons - but the execution leaves something to be desired.

Anyhow that's my two brass shells.

[Olefin]

And i dont think that they were referring to a Harrier air strike or helo air strike when they say carriers.

By the way thats one thing I have been saying about the so called last fleet in the world being shattered somehow meaning that the USN is finished

The Japanese fleet was shattered at Leyte Gulf - and they still had a bunch of destroyers, cruisers, battleships and yes even carriers in commission after that

Shattered doesnt mean destroyed or almost destroyed - it means that their effectiveness as a fleet has been seriously compromised to where another fleet battle isnt possible - but it leaves more than enough to still be dangerous

So two carriers still very much afloat post Kola disaster in the Med that can launch effective air strikes - not only is it canon (per Med Cruise) and defensible as canon (for the canon defenders) its also very probable based on how many carriers the US had in commission at the time of the Twilight War even if the last main fleet got shattered at Kola as a fleet


And saying we need to use canon for the navy has always been iffy

Look at Last Submarine - according to it only 4 US subs are left by the Kola disaster in June of 1997 - that is definitely not possible no matter what the timeline says and the canon says - if there is one thing GDW screwed up big time its that

I know they needed it for how the Last Submarine Trilogy was written for dramatic effect that this is all there is left of the USN nuke fleet - but there is no scenario where the USN, with all the subs that were in commission or able to be recommissioned back then would lose every nuke sub they had, including all the Ohios as well by mid 1997 - that means all the Ohios are gone BEFORE the war goes nuclear

and saying Soviet nuclear subs were hard to locate - I have a brother in law who was in attack boats for years - when I told him that that he started laughing

what he told me was that to have that many subs lost the Russians would have needed a fleet three to four times as big as what they had - and that to sink all the Ohios they would have needed a new tech that frankly to this day doesnt exist

and having only four NATO subs left operationally by the start of 1997 means that between Turkey, Great Britain, Germany and Norway - who had literally dozens of subs - all they have left after a war that is barely a few months old is four subs

and I know Leg that its a game - but it has to be a believeable one -

now having those kinds of losses happen by mid to late 2000 from multiple losses in nuked ports, breakdowns, etc.. where the boats are sitting in harbors or ports and cant sortie because of that - thats believeable

having the Corpus Christi be the only sub that is operational and that MilGov can get to in time because the others are out of fuel, have breakdowns, took hull damage and cant submerge, have damage to their weapons or sonar systems, are in long term refits in say San Francisco or in Australia and wont be available for months or they are in Korea and cant get home in time

now that is not only believeable but after a four year war - very very possible

so what did my GM do - he ignored canon and when we did the Med Cruise he had us taking spare parts to get a USN nuke sub stuck in Israel operational so she could get home again - and when we did Boomer we did the same - i.e. we didnt stop at some godforsaken beach we pulled into a UK sub base to get repaired and dropped off more parts for another USN sub stuck there as well (we were going there anyway and getting damaged by the French ship just made it more necessary)

heck we didnt even have to find Corpus Christi when we did Last Submarine -the whole module as we played it was to get those torpedoes (and spare parts) at Weymouth so she could sail (she was already in MilGov hands per our GM)

and with all those changes - we had a lot of fun on those three modules and still kept 90 percent or more of it canon as to how they were run

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

To be honest, I just picked the Saratoga 'cause I like the name and her history, I live in Florida hence her being run aground here, and the idea of something as big and looming as an aircraft carrier as an adventure locale is too neat to pass up. I could have just as easily made it a super-freighter full of vital war materiel, a different carrier, a Soviet carrier, a different location, etc. etc.

It'd probably be "cooler" if it was a CV-N, then there'd be power and a real rationale for people still living there, but that was already dealt with in Satellite Down, which was IMO not a great module. The premise is neat - multiple factions need that satellite data, and it's under the gun of a crazy guy with lots of weapons - but the execution leaves something to be desired.

Anyhow that's my two brass shells.

Mate, I think it's a good idea...and I actually think it's cooler using something that's got a bit of history attached.

My only very minor nit pick would be that I think (although I could be mistaken) that Cuba was officially neutral, so maybe keep the Cubans out of the naval battle that causes her to be run aground?

On the subject of Cuba, according to the BYB Guantanamo Bay was evacuated by the US at some point in 1999...maybe try and work that in?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Mate, I think it's a good idea...and I actually think it's cooler using something that's got a bit of history attached.

My only very minor nit pick would be that I think (although I could be mistaken) that Cuba was officially neutral, so maybe keep the Cubans out of the naval battle that causes her to be run aground?

On the subject of Cuba, according to the BYB Guantanamo Bay was evacuated by the US at some point in 1999...maybe try and work that in?

That works; by '99 or so she's one of the last surviving big carriers in the world and she's providing CAP for the withdraw from Gitmo. As they're coming around the west end of Cuba she gets jumped by a Soviet TF and has a running battle with them. The CVBG soaks a lot of missiles intended for her, most of the boats get away, and her air wing prosecutes the shit out of the Soviets (who have no air cover to speak of), with Saratoga crippled by the aforementioned ASM strikes at the last, but her birds putting paid to the Soviet boats. She loses most of her a/c and many pilots, orders her birds to Key West and finally limps to the shallows off of Fort Jefferson*, offloads her wounded to picket boats and angel flights who then take 'em to NAS Key West or Homestead, and a rotating guard detail keeps her out of the hands of marauders/pirates or New America.

That last part kind of sticks with me a little bit though...It isn't like New America has a floating dry-dock they could put a CV into for the eight to ten years of repairs and rebuilding it'd take, etc. etc., and at best the ship is a wreck.

Maybe there are no guards on her and she was stripped of all weapons, supplies, etc. and it's just her hulk out there now.

Or alternately go back to my original thesis: it isn't Saratoga, but a nuclear carrier and is stranded off of Key West and providing the city with power, facilities, etc...

I dunno, it's more for community use.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

That last part kind of sticks with me a little bit though...It isn't like New America has a floating dry-dock they could put a CV into for the eight to ten years of repairs and rebuilding it'd take, etc. etc., and at best the ship is a wreck.

NA might not be able to get the ship into a condition where they could make use of it, but what about all of the equipment / weapons / etc on board? If they snagged themselves a single A6 or F18, some fuel, and some dumb bombs that probably still gives them way more firepower than anyone else in the area.

Granted, they don't need a carrier for that - they could take control of a Naval Air Station instead, but it's just a thought.

And who gets the job of taking out said aircraft - the PC's...

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Or alternately go back to my original thesis: it isn't Saratoga, but a nuclear carrier and is stranded off of Key West and providing the city with power, facilities, etc...

If you're looking at Key West, one of those "facilities" would need to be the ship's desalination plant. I looked at the area for a 2013 module that never happened, and IIRC, there are no natural sources of fresh water in the Keys.

- C.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

NA might not be able to get the ship into a condition where they could make use of it, but what about all of the equipment / weapons / etc on board? Let's face it, if they snagged themselves a single A6 or F18, some fuel, and some dumb bombs that probably still gives them way more firepower than anyone else in the area.

probably vastly more likely they'd help themselves to the bombs and whatnot as a basis for explosives, plus whatever wasn't gathered up from the armory in terms of small weapons.

Assuming they absorbed some technicians from various air-forces, how feasible is it that they could wire up A2A missiles for surface-to-surface work??

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

If you're looking at Key West, one of those "facilities" would need to be the ship's desalination plant. I looked at the area for a 2013 module that never happened, and IIRC, there are no natural sources of fresh water in the Keys.

- C.

Actually, there's one: it's a Blue Hole in the middle of Big Torch Key. It is naturally filtered fresh water. I can picture that as being VERY hotly contested...

[Adm.Lee]

Aha! I was wondering if Key West NAS was viable as a MilGov outpost. I wanted something to serve as an initial base for a PC group to go out and survey the Gulf Coast. If there's nothing on the Florida peninsula, that would be a good a place as any.

OTOH, I like using a wrecked carrier as a base. She could still serve as a barracks. If at least one generator could be fueled, then there could be power for lights, radios, desalinization. What European veteran wouldn't volunteer for a billet that promised showers and clean sheets whenever they finished a mission?!

There's over 5 thousand bunks there, plus tools and plenty of space (hangar & flight decks) for briefings, rehearsals, exercise, whatever. She could be the static mooring base for a cloud of smaller boats and even some light freighters.

EDIT: I just got off my Google-butt and looked up Fort Jefferson-- holy carp, that's a long way from land! 'Twould be really secure from those New America fellers, at least as long as they could get food & fuel from somewhere on the mainland. I'm seeing a flotilla of (ex-civilian) sailboats run by the USN and perhaps USCG, running about the Gulf, picking up and delivering supplies, messages and people. The faux-Constitution would be a real prize for that, given her relatively big size.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Aha! I was wondering if Key West NAS was viable as a MilGov outpost. I wanted something to serve as an initial base for a PC group to go out and survey the Gulf Coast. If there's nothing on the Florida peninsula, that would be a good a place as any.

OTOH, I like using a wrecked carrier as a base. She could still serve as a barracks. If at least one generator could be fueled, then there could be power for lights, radios, desalinization. What European veteran wouldn't volunteer for a billet that promised showers and clean sheets whenever they finished a mission?!

There's over 5 thousand bunks there, plus tools and plenty of space (hangar & flight decks) for briefings, rehearsals, exercise, whatever. She could be the static mooring base for a cloud of smaller boats and even some light freighters.

EDIT: I just got off my Google-butt and looked up Fort Jefferson-- holy carp, that's a long way from land! 'Twould be really secure from those New America fellers, at least as long as they could get food & fuel from somewhere on the mainland. I'm seeing a flotilla of (ex-civilian) sailboats run by the USN and perhaps USCG, running about the Gulf, picking up and delivering supplies, messages and people. The faux-Constitution would be a real prize for that, given her relatively big size.

Putting a ship at Fort Jefferson would make Fort Jefferson a fort again, too...but the fuel issue is a HUGE problem. I would probably rework this and make it a CV-N or some other kind of nuclear vessel aground out there.

[Adm.Lee]

Re: fuel problem: yes, but I'm not talking about putting all the boilers on line to drive the ship, maybe just one (or two, running one at a time?) of them, converted to alcohol, like everything else out there. Just enough to run some of the generators and distillers and the like. If we believe in the power of methanol, there's a whole lot of plants to get chopped up over on the Florida mainland!

EDIT: now that I'm positing a big ship as an instant barracks, did Mobile and the BB Alabama get hit? That's a plenty stable place to live, too.

[Targan]

I wonder whether kelp beds and sea grass meadows could be a viable source of biomass for the production of alcohol fuels in coastal areas? Or to kick it even more old school, could it be harvested and dried or even scavenged pre-dried from the shoreline and used as-is in wood and coal-fired boilers?

Two-thirds of our planet is covered with water and in shallow coastal seas there are huge amounts of aquatic vegetation. In some parts of the world there are free-floating "islands" of kelp. The reason that the mention of Florida triggered this line of thinking for me is that I know that manatees are found around Florida's coast and manatees are "sea cows". Where you find manatees you will surely find sea grass meadows.

[Adm.Lee]

Well, as far as drying the kelp, the Sara's going to have a big ol' flight deck not doing anything else... It's either that or a big garden!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

I wonder whether kelp beds and sea grass meadows could be a viable source of biomass for the production of alcohol fuels in coastal areas? Or to kick it even more old school, could it be harvested and dried or even scavenged pre-dried from the shoreline and used as-is in wood and coal-fired boilers?

Two-thirds of our planet is covered with water and in shallow coastal seas there are huge amounts of aquatic vegetation. In some parts of the world there are free-floating "islands" of kelp. The reason that the mention of Florida triggered this line of thinking for me is that I know that manatees are found around Florida's coast and manatees are "sea cows". Where you find manatees you will surely find sea grass meadows.

Unfortunately, large kelp beds are not that prevalent down around the Keys; the water is too warm and shallow. The islands themselves can be harvested for distillation material but it's got to be taken like 80 miles to where our ship sits near the fort.