Prime Base

[Gamer]

This I don't agree with you on Dragon,

"A) I changed the cover of the base. Instead of a ranch, placed in a very nontypical location I made this a location for one of the major charities of Morrow Industries, a children's hospital and hospice. This had several advantages: it allowed personnel to come and go in large numbers, with their families; since it was a real facility, the real patients, families, and staff provided good cover for Project personnel; it gave a good reason for large quantities of material to be brought up to the ridge; construction, enlargement and renovation of the many buildings at the hospital gave cover for Prime Bases' construction; the locals knew this to be a hospital for terminally ill children, they quickly learned not to get close to any of the patients or their families or to be surprised when they suddenly disappeared, this was put down to a death or recovery of a child, with the parents simply returning home; the facility could provide the core of a colony after the war; its mission would, possibly, shield it from the worst of the war, targeting a children's hospital is pretty low; it was good cover for shipping high tech equipment into Prime Base."

Not a bad idea. The hospice would also explain a small airstrip being built to handle mid-sized aircraft (one less thing to worry about when the Project goes operational).

The hospital, any hospital is still a target, it may not be by any bomb but it's a target for all the wandering refugees and military personnel.
Seriously if you had survived and was wandering by soon afterwards would you just keep on going by or would you scrounge for meds?
Nobody is dumb enough to just go on by especially if the facility was in decent shape, after all a roof is a roof.
The MP personnel wouldn't have to advertise a refuge camp, it becomes one before the dust even clears.

I agree with most everything else everyone has said and I too got rid of the Phoenix team, what a waste of space.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Gamer

This I don't agree with you on Dragon,

The hospital, any hospital is still a target, it may not be by any bomb but it's a target for all the wandering refugees and military personnel.
Seriously if you had survived and was wandering by soon afterwards would you just keep on going by or would you scrounge for meds?
Nobody is dumb enough to just go on by especially if the facility was in decent shape, after all a roof is a roof.
The MP personnel wouldn't have to advertise a refuge camp, it becomes one before the dust even clears.

I agree with most everything else everyone has said and I too got rid of the Phoenix team, what a waste of space.

The initial problem with access to the base, in the module, was placing a ranch on top of a ridge. Nobody in that portion of Nevada builds ranches on top of ridges, primarily due to a lack of any reliable source of water. In and of it self, that screams "government installation" in 100 foot tall LED flashing lights. The hospice idea, especially a children's hospice for terminally ill patients makes better sense (all though the lack of a water supply rears its ugly head yet again). Another idea would be to place a open pit mine (but again, that on top of the ridge thing is kinda unique in this state).

My own personal views, after a lot of research into local conditions would be to build the ranch on the floor of the valley and then dig an access tunnel into the ridge. Instead of building a steep incline (elevators, stairs) in order to get to Level One of the Life Cylinder, I'd simply reverse stack the levels (One moving to the bottom of the cylinder) on all of the cylinders.

I also have a few thoughts on the Grand Deception....surely, at some point in time, the probability of the location of Prime being discovered by a hostile force had to have been discussed (and if it wasn't, then we have some very poor planners!). The entrance tunnel could have had a series of "annexes" holding food stuffs, clothing, building and medical supplies then end at Post one and the "official" three "pod" base. This would also allow for the transcore to be deleted from the first level with access up to level two through a hidden staircase. So if anyone did crack the entrance tunnel, a prepared deception is already in place (besides, these emergency supplies could always be issued to the local teams).

Just a few thoughts!

[Gamer]

Nobody in that portion of Nevada builds ranches on top of ridges, primarily due to a lack of any reliable source of water.

I had one at Eagle peak in 87 and I had no problem with water.
Only problem had was fire.
It only screams government facility in hindsight.
Go through all the ranches like this you see on maps all over the north american continent and you'll see just how many aren't government facilities.

A mine was the better way to do it, especially if you place toxic mine tailing warning signs around the perimeter.
A better option would have been toxic waste facility.
Before the war and after the war it would keep people away, the last thing the refugees want is more contamination.
You can't just build such a facility with thoughts of only keeping people away pre-war.
Operational security before, during and after the war MUST be taken into account or don't even bother with it.
When survivors are roaming around after the war they are going to be looking for places of safety and a hospital is about the very worst thing anyone could have come up with.
It offers refugees shelter and possible medical help, it gives military personnel a nice FOB.
Might as well put up a giant neon sign "Refugees welcome" and a continuous fireworks display.
A hospital would be the very first thing I got rid of from the book.
Again, operational Security, before, during, and after the war must be maintained.
You don't reveal the site until you are absolutely sure it is the right time to do so.
If this group of people are even remotely good at planning for contingencies they would never even think of something so ridiculous as a hospital.

If this group was to think of creating refugee camps they would have already planned for that contingency.
Prepared sites would have already been created, using such guises as dude ranches, retreats, even hollywood movie sets like some old west towns similar to these:
http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry//iverson.htm
http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry//melody.htm
http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry/corrigan/corrigan.htm
http://www.billcotter.com/disney/golden.htm
http://employees.oxy.edu/jerry//bell.htm
http://circlemcity.com/
http://www.nps.gov/samo/planyourvisi...mountranch.htm

I like your deception plan, but one problem there, once the deception base is discovered what is going to make the badguys move on?
What keeps them from staying and holding the facility?
You don't know if this is the entire hostile force or just a part of it, you take it back and then they come back and on it goes back and forth and the primary facility will eventually get discovered, it's only a matter of when not if.
Great, now I'm giving myself a headache thinking about it.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Gamer

I had one at Eagle peak in 87 and I had no problem with water. Only problem had was fire. It only screams government facility in hindsight. Go through all the ranches like this you see on maps all over the north american continent and you'll see just how many aren't government facilities.

A mine was the better way to do it, especially if you place toxic mine tailing warning signs around the perimeter. A better option would have been toxic waste facility. Before the war and after the war it would keep people away, the last thing the refugees want is more contamination. You can't just build such a facility with thoughts of only keeping people away pre-war. Operational security before, during and after the war MUST be taken into account or don't even bother with it. When survivors are roaming around after the war they are going to be looking for places of safety and a hospital is about the very worst thing anyone could have come up with. It offers refugees shelter and possible medical help, it gives military personnel a nice FOB. Might as well put up a giant neon sign "Refugees welcome" and a continuous fireworks display. A hospital would be the very first thing I got rid of from the book. Again, operational Security, before, during, and after the war must be maintained. You don't reveal the site until you are absolutely sure it is the right time to do so. If this group of people are even remotely good at planning for contingencies they would never even think of something so ridiculous as a hospital.

If this group was to think of creating refugee camps they would have already planned for that contingency. Prepared sites would have already been created, using such guises as dude ranches, retreats, even hollywood movie sets like some old west towns similar to these:

I like your deception plan, but one problem there, once the deception base is discovered what is going to make the badguys move on? What keeps them from staying and holding the facility? You don't know if this is the entire hostile force or just a part of it, you take it back and then they come back and on it goes back and forth and the primary facility will eventually get discovered, it's only a matter of when not if.
Great, now I'm giving myself a headache thinking about it.

Buy stock in Bayer....

Sitting down and thinking it over, a mine that works over a 10-15 year stretch and then closes when "the vein ran out" may be a better approach; I like the HAZMAT idea, even plays into canon (Starnaman Incident's Delta Base cover).

As far as the modified deception, the part of the canon that I liked was having the remaining transcore in the Supply Cylinder and its "leaking radiation hazard"...that would certainly encourage people to move on, and with a lack of power (no water, no air circulation) what use would the base be?

As far as the refugee sites, no argument from me! I think the covers would be great. My point is that any refugee site would need to be placed as far as possible from Prime Base. Of all TMP installations, Prime is the one that requires "no assistance of any kind to refugees". Prime should be directing other teams to move into the area and encourage refugees to move away from the area, I can even see a PsyOps Team telling stories about the deadly monsters in the area, perhaps even stashing a can or three of nuclear waste and then using their geiger counters to "prove" how deadly the radiation in the area is.

Just a couple of ideas....now going back to watch all of the idiots doing the Black Friday thang!

[Gamer]

Buy stock in Bayer....

why? docs have me on Flexeril (migraines)

The only thing that would stop me from using deception as a base would be such a hazmat leak.
No power or water means nothing as it is still a viable location/asset for now.

Having deception near prime is a very bad Idea.
Once Deception base is discovered it can no longer be used by MP personnel. The primary reason is people like me would place an OP near there to see if any more people appear and if the MP personnel at prime (or anywhere else really) are that stupid to return they just jeopardized themselves.

Im right there with you on the whole refugee thing though, they should be kept away from Prime.

Prime should be directing other teams to move into the area and encourage refugees to move away from the area

I'm of the mindset that Prime should already have it's own teams to "encourage" people to move on.
Deadly monster tales might only encourage some of the more heavily armed to go deal with the "deadly monsters".

For a modern game I'd be more likely going to to make a MP "front" out of something like these guys:
http://www.hardenedstructures.com/index.html
who built things like this for other "fronts" like these guys:
http://www.undergroundvaults.com/
or a "front" like this http://www.hardenedstructures.com/missile-silos.html
or this
http://probyte2u.hubpages.com/hub/Vi...012-and-Beyond
Made for a rich 2012 "nut case".

[dragoon500ly]

Now here's a thought.....

We have Prime Base built on the ridge with the mission annex tunnel running northwards along the ridge. The only openings in the canon Prime Base is the decon entrance, the two exposure modules and the access through the ave for the heliport. But how about a fifth entrance?

This is an elevator shaft that runs down to the base of the ridge. Here it enters a "deception" base. It has a tunnel leading from a deserted ranch with supply annexes (all empty except for scraps and garbage), the tunnel ends in a security station with a decon setup and then a small, three or four level base that has already been "abandoned" and only needing an infusion of thermite and gasoline for that "just roasted" effect. Anyone breaking the security finds the base abandoned. Prime Base Security could monitor anyone who accesses or occupies the base, just in case they can be used to further Project needs.

As for the concealed elevator access, there are no ladders, no stairs, just that tube running 400 feet straight up. And as sadistic PD....there would be a ton or so of concrete slabs ready to be loaded into the elevator...right before its cables are cut.

Just a thought!

[ArmySGT.]

Here's another thought.

Why in each of these modules (Prime Base and Desert Search) did the planners bury the heavy equipment necessary to open the base inside the base?

Really? Every undertaking to get started begins with a pick and a shovel?

Let the damn door open inward and have a area to one side to dump the spoils, then use the loader bucket to open the exit ramp.

Why wear out or worse injure personnel just to open the damn door.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Here's another thought.

Why in each of these modules (Prime Base and Desert Search) did the planners bury the heavy equipment necessary to open the base inside the base?

Really? Every undertaking to get started begins with a pick and a shovel?

Let the damn door open inward and have a area to one side to dump the spoils, then use the loader bucket to open the exit ramp.

Why wear out or worse injure personnel just to open the damn door.

I get the impression that the author wanted to torment the players....

Have to agree, that is a far more logical approach.

[ArmySGT.]

The Hydroponics set up in PB is pretty small for 500 people. That are of N. Nevada and SE Oregon is pretty desolate scrub too.

So.............. food. What where they and the Teams in the Field going to eat when the ration packs run out?

Yeah it is gonna grow food, but not a lot and not much variety. Aquaponics is a better set up as it will add fish (tilapia, catfish, carp), crayfish (red claws are 1lb!), fresh water mollusks, as sources of protein to the diet. Still for 500?

Would need a whole cylinder just itself.

Have you noticed there isn't a cannery and/or a freeze dry facility in there? What replaces the ration packs at 30 days into the operation?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Hydroponics set up in PB is pretty small for 500 people. That are of N. Nevada and SE Oregon is pretty desolate scrub too.

So.............. food. What where they and the Teams in the Field going to eat when the ration packs run out?

Yeah it is gonna grow food, but not a lot and not much variety. Aquaponics is a better set up as it will add fish (tilapia, catfish, carp), crayfish (red claws are 1lb!), fresh water mollusks, as sources of protein to the diet. Still for 500?

Would need a whole cylinder just itself.

Have you noticed there isn't a cannery and/or a freeze dry facility in there? What replaces the ration packs at 30 days into the operation?

To really make Prime work, it looks like the Supply Cylinder would have to be gutted, moving the heavy industrial stuff out into the mission annex, and using the freed space for aquaponics as well as a cannery/freeze dry facility. I'm really starting to think that a fourth cylinder may be required just to help fix the obvious points!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

To really make Prime work, it looks like the Supply Cylinder would have to be gutted, moving the heavy industrial stuff out into the mission annex, and using the freed space for aquaponics as well as a cannery/freeze dry facility. I'm really starting to think that a fourth cylinder may be required just to help fix the obvious points!

Oh no you gonna need a fifth cylinder...........

Where is the factories and the foundries to make tools, replacement parts, even complete machines? Fusion power packs are good for 18 months I think there is facilities for recharging one (helium 3 ?) but what if you need a new one?

Detroit won't be making any of those, let alone any new V-150 parts.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Oh no you gonna need a fifth cylinder...........

Where is the factories and the foundries to make tools, replacement parts, even complete machines? Fusion power packs are good for 18 months I think there is facilities for recharging one (helium 3 ?) but what if you need a new one?

Detroit won't be making any of those, let alone any new V-150 parts.

I'd remove the radiation dump in Supply and replace it with a fusion recharge facility. I'd also move the industrial stuff out into the mission annex tunnels (and possible add 2-4 additional tunnels either running the same way or at cross angles), Ammunition needs to be at the end of a very long tunnel and as far as possible from Prime, and behind several sets of very thick blast doors!

Moving the industrial stuff out of supply opens up those areas for additional farming, canning, freeze-drying, etc. And moving the industrial stuff out into the tunnels gets them out and away from the living areas and allows for more space (if needed).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

"B) The Project had almost no need of transuranic radioactives. Fusion uses Hydrogen and makes Helium (and a neutron). The radioactive sludge at the bottom of Prime Base has no reason to be there. Additionally, NO ONE (except the Federal Government at Hanford) stores high energy radioactivies this way. What did the Project do? Place its idiot children in the safety department? Write this stuff out, its stupid!"

Concur.

I had a thought. This could explain the radioactive materials necessary for the deception to work and removes the implausible stockpile of radioactive waste from inside Prime Base.

Easy Peasy.

Volunteers that were going to die anyway.

A few Science Team Members in HAAM suits entered to center of the blast zone from the Krell nuke and collected radioactive debris.

Done.

[robj3]

Terry Sofian wrote the 'Prime Base Repairman' article.
He has a background in fire and radiation safety (I think he mentions this).

A pdf copy can be found in the files area of the Morrow Project yahoo group.

Prime Base needs a rewrite.

The only advantage to the Nevada location is a relatively low amount of
post-attack fallout exposure (from FEMA's NAPB-90); the lack of water,
arable land and proximity to targets like Nellis AFB, Hawthorne and Sierra Army Depots are big problems.

The location of ELF transmitters is limited by the conductivity of rock, hence the location of the U.S. system in Wisconsin and Michigan where the geology is right. The Project isn't going to have an ELF transmitter.

Alternate communication modalities with continental range include shortwave and meteor burst. The problem with these are reliability in the post attack environment, but data rates are high and large transmitters and receivers are not required.

Other options include "stratellites" (balloons or UAVs) to act as very tall antennae.

Really big Projects could use something like 'Perimetr' or the US ERCS (Minuteman ICBMs with transmitters) to send the wake up signal.

I agree with many of the comments upthread.

The neutron bombardment from an operating reactor[1] may produce considerable amounts of radioactive material (e.g. the reactor walls and heat exchange machinery).

However, the half life of induced radioactivity is short (30 years), and after 150 years detectable but harmless levels would be present.

A hardened complex with the cover story of a mine or waste storage facility
makes the most sense - it provides a good cover story. For later collapses,
archival storage or secure data centres could be another cover story.


Rob

========

[1] Criteria for Project fusion fuels:
- Stability - nothing with short half-lives (e.g. tritium's [T] 12 years)
- Relatively cheap (helium-3 is 1 part in 10,000 of the helium obtained from
gas and oil fields, so is horrendously expensive)
- Minimal neutron production.
- Net positive energy yield (reaction energies below are expressed in mega
electron volts [MeV]; 1 MeV = 1.6 x 10^(-13) joules).

This leaves us with:

a. Deuterium (hydrogen-2, D)
Found in seawater (0.02%); stable.

D + D -> T + p + 4.03MeV (50%)
D + D -> He-3 + n + 3.27MeV (50%)

Proton (p) can be trapped electrically and its kinetic energy harnessed.
Neutron (n) has an energy of 2.45 MeV and is a radiation problem.
It may be possible to encourage the first reaction over the second.

Optional reaction to use the He-3:
D + He-3 -> He-4 + p + 18.3MeV

Big advantages: one fuel type, storable as heavy water. Relatively easy to
initiate, high energy density.

Big disadvantage: neutron production - major radiation hazard. Need for
coolant jacket, heat exchangers, etc. to efficiently produce electricity.

b. Lithium-6 (Li-6)
Makes up about 6% of naturally occurring lithium. Stable.

D + Li-6 -> 2He-4 + 22.4MeV

Alternate (side) reactions:
D + Li-6 -> He-3 + He-4 + n + 2.56MeV
D + Li-6 -> Li-7 + p + 5 MeV
D + Li-6 -> Be-7 + n + 3.4MeV

If the fusion plant includes a proton source (synchotron) and supply
(hydrogen) we could use:
p + Li-6 -> He-4 + He-3 + 4MeV

The big problem for the Project is the military demand for lithium-6 (for
the fusion stage of nuclear weapons).
Another, lesser one is the need for deuterium or hydrogen (2 fuel
materials).
It's also relatively hard to start (worse than boron) and energy density is
low.

c. Boron-11 (B-11)
80% of natural boron; stable.

p + B-11 -> 3He-4 + 8.7MeV

Needs a source and supply of protons.

On reflection, the best candidate. Minimal messy neutrons from helium-boron
side reactions (~0.2%), no proliferation potential, no diversion of
traceable materials with military applications.

The biggest disadvantage is that it's relatively hard to start (~16x harder
than deuterium).

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Hey all.

Apologies for the resurrected thread, but I figured it would be better to consolidate my questions here instead of starting fresh.

Has anyone considered modernizing Prime Base? Technology is a lot more advanced now than it was in 1987, and I subsequently believe that Prime could get a great deal more "bang for its' buck", even if you keep it confined to three modules.

Computers would get much, much smaller. This could either free a great deal of the space in Ops, or give the base room to double-down, and install larger systems, possibly cloud-based. A cloud system could be used as a centralized processing resource, which could be dynamically allocated to whichever department needed it most.

Flight Operations is fine conceptually (ignoring the tunnel thing), but could definitely benefit from modern technology. The V-22 Osprey's S/VTOL capability and long(er) legs make it a practical shoe-in for the hangar. Some kind of UAV like the Fire Scout would be great for maintaining situational awareness around Prime, and assisting any patrols that get in firefights nearby.

The exposure modules could probably use some growth, too. Perhaps a third dedicated module with area search radars would be wise; the project had the air base planned for some time, and it never hurts to know what's in your area.

I love some of the ideas floated. A fourth cylinder would be really cool to design from the floor up, as would a dedicated industrial capability. In my mind, both life and support would be much different.

Life should probably be converted over to entirely housing and living facilities. All agriculture should be moved into a separate module that can take advantage of a dedicated vertical farming design. Using gravity to manage water flow would be great for the agricultural viability of the base. If you make it a full cylinder, you also have tons of room for an ark-like seed bank and genetic storehouse, which is a cool set piece. Thematically, more cryo-tubes fit here. Biochemical reactors could be useful for growing and deactivating microorganisms for the purpose of medicine. You could also put a secondary fire station here.

Support should get a workover as well. Whether or not you move industrial gear to a different part of the base, you're going to get a lot of space in here either way. Technology has scaled down quite a bit. Printing, for example, no longer needs a dedicated level for the same output that the Project wanted. I think a good chunk of that space should be dedicated to 3D Printing technology. Imagine the applications of a small, robust, intelligent system that can make a three-dimensional copy of anything you have a CAD file for. I would also like to see support (or a hypothetical industrial cylinder) get a limited petroleum / ethanol refinement facility, if that's possible.

What do you guys usually put in the space that was left unallocated for the Phoenix Project?

[mikeo80]

I agree that Prime Base needs to be looked at. It all depends on when TEOTWAWKI occurs.

IF you follow canon as it exists today, then guess what, you are stuck with the original Prime.

IF you push the date out, then, as you correctly state, technology evolves.

It just really depends on YOUR game. When do you want to light up WWIII?

One thing I have done in a lot of games, even those built around 1989, is better information about Prime to the field commanders.

IF you follow the canon, and Prime dies, then I have had at least some of the following things occur.

1) The delayed message to wake the teams occured. However, there was additional information encoded in the message. If a field commander of sufficent rank used his/her ID card to access the vehicle commo, then the rest of the message was issued. It showed the commander the location of the nearest regional supply base.

2) Once at the supply base, the commander's card would access a part of the computer's memory that contained the full story of the death of Prime. (At least as much as was known) The location of Prime was also released/

3) Upon activation of 20% or more of the field assets (Based upon attempts to contact Prime.) another signal was sent. This was to Prime Beta. The alternate command center. THis would wake the sleepers at Prime Beta with the story of the death of Prime Alpha. It also would bring on line a solid C3I base to begin the work of Morrow Project.

Just some ideas to kick around.

My $0.02

Mike

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Hey all.

Apologies for the resurrected thread, but I figured it would be better to consolidate my questions here instead of starting fresh.

I don’t mind this has been a great thread. Any inputs is a better game.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Has anyone considered modernizing Prime Base? Technology is a lot more advanced now than it was in 1987, and I subsequently believe that Prime could get a great deal more "bang for its' buck", even if you keep it confined to three modules.

I generally play the canon date of 18 November 1989. As we know what technology and events were happening at the time. This is the GMs call completely, the rules are a framework so tweak it if that makes it more exciting.
As for the technology, well fusion power, Man portable laser, powered exoskeletons, digital maps, and Damocles….. I treat the technology available to the Morrow Project as 10-20 years ahead of that in use by the Federal Government and others. The Council of Tomorrow is comprised of successful businessmen in a variety of fields comprising the industrial capacity of multinational conglomerates.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Computers would get much, much smaller. This could either free a great deal of the space in Ops, or give the base room to double-down, and install larger systems, possibly cloud-based. A cloud system could be used as a centralized processing resource, which could be dynamically allocated to whichever department needed it most.

I re-designate the space as Data Centers. Holding the knowledge and scientific achievements of all of the Pre-War cultures for the rebuilding effort.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Flight Operations is fine conceptually (ignoring the tunnel thing), but could definitely benefit from modern technology. The V-22 Osprey's S/VTOL capability and long(er) legs make it a practical shoe-in for the hangar. Some kind of UAV like the Fire Scout would be great for maintaining situational awareness around Prime, and assisting any patrols that get in firefights nearby.

I was thinking instead of an electro-magnetic catapult to launch drones with a short dirt runway and disguised elevator on the roof for recovery. The Osprey is not a little bird, but I am not excited by the Flight ops in Prime Base either.
My solution to Flight Ops is to turn it to Drone ops, and move Flight Ops out of the Cylinders with access by subway train from the Ops cylinder. Maybe move it to Gerlach, Nevada. The Playa there is big enough to land 747s in the dry season.
I think a drone would call to much attention to Prime Base. It would be like vulture circling a kill and be visible to radar for miles, and miles. Not to say one would not be launched to look around, but I think Prime Base would have fixed sensors that are passive or short ranged like Closed circuit cameras, LIDAR, and phased array radar in a low power setting. Most would be semi autonomous and alert a human operator when something in their area changed. Modern CCTV does this now.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

The exposure modules could probably use some growth, too. Perhaps a third dedicated module with area search radars would be wise; the project had the air base planned for some time, and it never hurts to know what's in your area.

I think that make a great side adventure for the Team to locate and get into operation sensor modules that are off the Prime Base and out of the area. Prime Base is hidden and a RADAR is an active radio transmitter that can be tracked back to its source. Prime would either need to give up their deception and go public, or use systems off site that can transmit back to Prime. An AWACS UAV perhaps, or a series of RADAR stations that relay their signals to Prime through MPsat.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

I love some of the ideas floated. A fourth cylinder would be really cool to design from the floor up, as would a dedicated industrial capability. In my mind, both life and support would be much different.

I agree. I am not satisfied that Prime can do the Mission in the original write up. Though this was very advanced for the time the Module was written so kudos to the authors for what was put together. Nitpicking is easy, creation is hard!

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Life should probably be converted over to entirely housing and living facilities. All agriculture should be moved into a separate module that can take advantage of a dedicated vertical farming design. Using gravity to manage water flow would be great for the agricultural viability of the base. If you make it a full cylinder, you also have tons of room for an ark-like seed bank and genetic storehouse, which is a cool set piece. Thematically, more cryo-tubes fit here. Biochemical reactors could be useful for growing and deactivating microorganisms for the purpose of medicine. You could also put a secondary fire station here.

I don’t know why agriculture was so overlooked. Any computer models of the fallout patterns for a nuclear exchange showed the major crop producing regions of the US covered in highly radioactive isotopes. Bad juju. I think agriculture is going to be important but probably further out from the main cylinder as the whole process is a bit stinky.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

Support should get a workover as well. Whether or not you move industrial gear to a different part of the base, you're going to get a lot of space in here either way. Technology has scaled down quite a bit. Printing, for example, no longer needs a dedicated level for the same output that the Project wanted. I think a good chunk of that space should be dedicated to 3D Printing technology. Imagine the applications of a small, robust, intelligent system that can make a three-dimensional copy of anything you have a CAD file for. I would also like to see support (or a hypothetical industrial cylinder) get a limited petroleum / ethanol refinement facility, if that's possible.

I think you will still find printing to be large scale. Making books, and informational news papers is large equipment. I don’t think of this as say a Kinkos copy center but, as a print plant for a major book distributor capable of 100,000 school textbooks a month or a week.
With Daedalus, and Lasers I don’t see why not the Support can not have that and more CNC machinery. Just be careful what you dole out to players.
I think a refinery is essential to the Project but not inside Prime. It is to dangerous, and toxic, plus better suited to be built where the oil is, or where a pipeline can be tapped into.

Originally Posted by DigTw0Grav3s

What do you guys usually put in the space that was left unallocated for the Phoenix Project?

I treat the Pheonix as Frozen Watch. There are back up personnel there, that were never activated because of the contagion, most will be too old for field work but excellent Science and Operations staff personnel. Alternates for the Projects Regional field and supply bases. This way I can have a low level functioning Prime Base and send the Players back into the field.

[dragoon500ly]

So looking over the "new" Prime Base...

A base with four cylinders, Operations, Life I and Life II, Support and a Annex Tunnel.

A mine runs into the mountain and stays operational for 10-15 years (cover for the construction of PB) and will serve as the entry into the base.

At the end of one shaft is the entry corridor leading to level one of the Ops cylinder. This consists of the Security Complex, Medical Screening,Records, Central In-processing and a small Billeting area for vistors

Level two Ops remains the same, Personnel and Accounting

Level three Ops remains unchanged, this is Mission Operations, the command center of the Project.

Level four Ops is Branch Operations, unchanged.

Level five Ops is the ELINT center, unchanged.

Level six Ops is the Communications Center, unchanged.

Level seven Ops is Administration, consisting of the Base Internal Telephone Exchange, Security Post Two, the Base Video Complex, Ops Fire Dept and the Base Administration offices.

Level eight Ops is TMP's Technical Library. In the module this also houses the World Holo map, I've often wondered on the utility of this and I find myself tending towards deleting the holo map and using the space for a larger library/additional computer space.

Level nine Ops is also dedicated to the Technical Library and World Holo Map, here I replace the holo map with a Main Briefing Room.

Level ten Ops is the Situation/Briefing Rooms, unchanged.

Level eleven Ops is the Holo Map Viewing and Control. Since I disagree with the idea of a Holo Map, I simply convert this into office spaces for the various teams assigned to PB.

Level twelve Ops is the Holo Map Floor. I convert this into just plain Maps. Not only is it able to project maps up to Mission Operations and the Briefing rooms, it is also the storage space for hardcopy maps as well as equipment needed to update maps.

Level thirteen Ops is the Archives and Atlantis Project Liaison. Here I move the archieve vaults out into the annex tunnels and replace them with computers storing the archived material in e-format.

[ArmySGT.]

Prime Base - 1.pdf

A couple of variations on Cylinders arrangement.

[ArmySGT.]

Klaatu, Verata, Nictu!

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

A base with four cylinders, Operations, Life I and Life II, Support and a Annex Tunnel.

I am going with Operations (Base), Operations (Mission), Life I, Life II, Support I, Support II, Support III, Annex tunnel and Magazine.

Operations (Base) cylinder just for running Prime Base itself. There is a few hundred personnel, and their dependents, the maintenance of facilities, and the maintenance of support activities. This is a full time job. This one is concerned only with the Base itself. Think of it as the Garrison Command that watches over any Army post or Air Base. Their not in charge of the Troops, except those that maintain the facilities, and those that care for the logistics of keeping the lights on, hot and cold water on tap, and toilets flushing. 24/7, weekends and holidays.

Operations (Mission) this is staffed with the Command Team, and Mission specialist for running the Project. This the Commander in Chief and Prime Base is his Pentagon. They have a large area to cover and not enough people to oversee it. Everything to do with the Project external of Prime Base itself.

Life I and Life II, possibly a Life III....... have to have room for everyone. A bed for every head.

Support I, II, and III........ Prime Base is going to be forced to manufacture anything, and everything the Project requires. The projections made by think tanks is that the Soviet response is going to cripple manufacturing and transportation hubs. Someplace, if it had power, may not be able to import raw materials and export goods even if they had the personnel. So these support facilities make everything from Apple sauce to X-ray film. Their are facilities to smelt recycled metals, can or freeze dry meals, synthesize medicines, and recycle plastics, even forge or pour large casting like motors. Fusion packs and fusion powerplants can also be refurbished here.

Annex Tunnel is actually a grid, One main thorough fare with parallel tunnels and side tunnels that paralellel each other. Divided into holding areas.

Magazine. Continuing on past the Annex tunnel leads to a manned guard station and a blast door. This leads to another grid of tunnels with further blast doors, and fire suppression systems for safeguarding the Project ammunition stockpiles and component for reconditioning or refurbishment.

[ArmySGT.]

You know what else makes a great deception and won't catch attention or be flooded by refugees after the war? A waste disposal incineration power plant. Any kind of truck can be coming and going. Waste is screened for metals and plastics that can be recycled by other means. Water lines, gas lines, a railyard, power lines and a power substation do not look out of place. All the underground digging and construction can be spun to the public as buffers and coffer dams that prevent contamination of ground water. Even after the facility were to go online any manner of truck could enter the facility and other items brought in on rail.

A waste disposal incineration power plant. Think on it.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Gamer

If this group was to think of creating refugee camps they would have already planned for that contingency.
Prepared sites would have already been created, using such guises as dude ranches, retreats, even hollywood movie sets like some old west towns

I really like this idea.. I may have to build a module around the idea. Maybe with a specialist team (lightly armed) that was part of the group meant to open it up.

Harsh, narcissistic, selfish baddies have taken up residence not realizing what is underneath the facade.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Sitting down and thinking it over, a mine that works over a 10-15 year stretch and then closes when "the vein ran out" may be a better approach; I like the HAZMAT idea, even plays into canon (Starnaman Incident's Delta Base cover).

So what do you suppose is going into the never opened Yucca Mountain?

[ArmySGT.]

Live Again!

Placeholder as I am working on something.

[Rockwolf66]

Oh and I have discovered a Plausible reason that the radioactive waste was being stored. IRL they have managed to create a radiation "eating" bacteria by splicing two other types of bacteria. The reason it hasn't been "Field" tested is a combination of Anti-Nuke and Anti-GMO hysteria.

The bacteria eventually make radioactive materials inert. I'm not sure how long that takes but it's fast enough to be observed in a lab setting.

[mmartin798]

Unfortunately, radioisotopes don't work that way. The bacteria you reference is radiation resistant and can decontaminate a radioactive site of other chemical contaminants, but not the radioisotopes.

[midnight77]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Unfortunately, radioisotopes don't work that way. The bacteria you reference is radiation resistant and can decontaminate a radioactive site of other chemical contaminants, but not the radioisotopes.

Don't they concentrate the radioactive material also? That makes it easier to clean up, right?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by midnight77

Don't they concentrate the radioactive material also? That makes it easier to clean up, right?

The article I read about them did not address that. The one bacteria in the pair derives biological energy from the radiation, essentially using the radiation for food. This protects the other from the radiation and allows it to do the rest. It is possible it could concentrate the radiation, but the article only mentioned breaking down toxins and releasing mercury from being bound and allowing it to go into the atmosphere.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The article I read about them did not address that. The one bacteria in the pair derives biological energy from the radiation, essentially using the radiation for food. This protects the other from the radiation and allows it to do the rest. It is possible it could concentrate the radiation, but the article only mentioned breaking down toxins and releasing mercury from being bound and allowing it to go into the atmosphere.

This would be radiosynthesis, a process by which the organism uses the energetic radioactive particles to synthesize O2 and Carbon into carbohydrate chains. A process similar to chemosynthesis or photosynthesis. There is a mold within the shattered nuclear containment vessel at Chernobyl doing this very thing. However, this would not be consuming the radioactive material. One would expect the levels of measurable radiation to be lower due the absorptive properties of the organism. Absorption being affected by the mass of the organism and coverage in square centimeters, surely.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Unfortunately, radioisotopes don't work that way. The bacteria you reference is radiation resistant and can decontaminate a radioactive site of other chemical contaminants, but not the radioisotopes.

I am ok with this because the Morrow Project is a science fiction game.

I mean Blue Undead and a Universal Antidote are a thing.