Belize

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Short answer is yes.

Problem is where said TA Battalion would come from. In the V1 timeline the TA Battalions were tasked with either reinforcing the British Army of the Rhine or United Kingdom Home Defence. There were no "spare" TA Battalions available so to redeploy one to Belize would mean pulling it from one of those two areas.

You'd have to ask the question as to how important Belize would be in the overall scheme of things - would it warrant pulling a Battalion from Germany or the UK? I doubt it very much - best case would probably be a reinforced Company.

In the V2 timeline there would have been even less TA Battalions.

(Obviously the above is based on RL TA deployments - if you opt to have hypothetical regular / TA Battalions raised during the course of the War in your T2K world it becomes more possible)

I would think that if there was a battalion there it would have been one going thru jungle training and it got stuck there in place having to defend Belize when transport collapsed - much like the TA that got sent to the Falklands ended up sitting out the war and afterward there

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I would think that if there was a battalion there it would have been one going thru jungle training and it got stuck there in place having to defend Belize when transport collapsed - much like the TA that got sent to the Falklands ended up sitting out the war and afterward there

Do you mean a Regular or TA Battalion?

If Regular it's possible, although I have my doubts as to whether a Regular Battalion would be sent for jungle training if war clouds are gathering in Europe.

The chances of a TA Battalion being sent for jungle training are slim to nil (unless you are butterflying some major changes to the British Army's organisation / structure). As I said, TA Battalions all had a designated role and jungle warfare didn't feature in that.

I'd forgotten about the TA being sent to the Falklands. SO that's even less Battalions to go around. I'd also suggest it's likely that at least one TA Battalion may have gone to Cyprus (Cyprus would have been the most logical place for the Infantry Battalion the MEFF (1/KOSB) to have come from. I am doing all of this from memory but iirc in a V1 timeline there were usually two Battalions in Cyprus (not including UN forces), one of which was designated as the standby Battalion for any Middle Eastern deployment. So if 1/KOSB did come from Cyprus it's possible a TA Battalion may have backfilled for them.)

[Olefin]

You are right on the TA battalion as to jungle training - so perhaps all that was there was the BATSUB guys including the helo flight (plus of course the Belize Defense Force)

[Rainbow Six]

I think any large scale British presence depends on whether or not you have the 1990's era withdrawals happening in your game world. If you don't and you posit that the UK maintains a Regular Army Battalion in country right up to the start of the Twilight War it's feasible that said Battalion then stayed in situ - whilst it could be moved prior to Autumn 1997 you could argue there weren't the available logistics to do so and then post autumn 1997 it simply isn't possible.

IIRC the British Army orbat in the NATO Vehicle Guide and the official UK Survivor's Guide omits a number of Infantry Battalions - from memory several Guards Battalions and 1st Battalion Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters - so possible one of them was the resident Belize Battalion

Or you could go with the Regular Battalion being replaced with a TA Battalion as a backfill measure. As I said earlier, I think that's perfectly plausible, but the powers that be in London would have to accept that would leave a shortfall elsewhere - so you're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If you posit that the 1990's withdrawals did take place - e.g. if Belize and Guatemala reached an accord as they did IRL - I can't see any way that there would be any sort of subsequent reinforcement at the start of the War if the Guatemalans started sabre rattling. Given geopolitical considerations elsewhere, once the resident Battalion is gone it would stay gone - troops would be badly needed elsewhere. You might see a token force - as I said earlier, some sort of reinforced Infantry Company, Regular or TA - to augment the BATSUB staff but that would be it.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by kalos72

General Pain did a Belize guide once...i tried to upload it here but it failed. Search his hisotry...

yup - weirdly enough it has gone missing....

I will try to find it when I'm home from work btw

-GP

it used to be at the site...

www.thebigbookofwar.50megs.com

[Raellus]

Does anyone know how one would become an instructor at BATSUB (i.e. military career-path)? Working on PC backstory and skills and would like to know. I've exhausted my GoogleFu and I'm hoping someone here has some info to share.

-

[Rainbow Six]

To the best of my knowledge given the very, very small number of instructors the permanent staff are most likely going to have been people who have previously attended the school as students and impressed the staff with their performance at that time so been 'invited' back as an instructor at a later time.

So I would say you're looking at a former student who graduated the Jungle Warfare School with high / top marks earlier in their career and has one of the permanent staff as one of their contacts. In theory they could be from pretty much any Regiment or Corps but most likely to be Infantry, Engineers, Artillery, or Signals (the Royal Armoured Corps didn't have much demand for the Jungle Warfare School but it's not impossible). Another option would probably be the RAF Regiment.

(I presume you know that BATSUB as it is only came into being in the mid 1990's so may not exist in a T2K timeline)

[Mahatatain]

The base/structure may have become "BATSUB" in the mid-90s but my understanding is there have been British forces in Belize for a lot longer than that. My guess is that BATSUB is just a name change to what was already there.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

The base/structure may have become "BATSUB" in the mid-90s but my understanding is there have been British forces in Belize for a lot longer than that. My guess is that BATSUB is just a name change to what was already there.

Prior to that British Forces Belize (BFB) was actually quite a bit larger (relatively speaking). The permanent garrison fluctuated between an Infantry Company and a full Battalion dependent on the political situation with Guatemala at any given time with support from 1 to 2 Flights of RAF Harriers (so 4 to 8 jets) and various support elements.

They were there to essentially guarantee Belize's security. I believe it was downsized in the early 90's when the threat from Guatemala was deemed to have lessened. There's a really good book called Phoenix Squadron by a guy called Rowland White which details a previous Guatemalan incursion in the 70's which was ended by the flying in of a Company of Grenadier Guards and the sudden appearance of Buccaneers from HMS Ark Royal overhead.

Essentially though you are correct, BATSUB was a name change for BFB. I should have been clearer about that. But also a significant downsizing.

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for the info.

Wikipedia has the following sourced info which shows how large the British forces in Belize were in 1989:

British Army Forces in Belize

• 1st Battalion, Welsh Guards, on six month roulement.
• 1 x Armoured Reconnaissance Troop, six month roulement.
• 1 x Field Battery, Royal Artillery, six month roulement.
• 1 x Field Squadron, Royal Engineers, six month roulement.
• 24th Squadron, Royal Corps of Transport.
• 78th Ordnance Company, Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
• No. 25 Flight, Army Air Corps.

Royal Navy Forces – Belize:

• West Indies Guard Ship, as needed.

Royal Air Force – Belize:

• No. 1417 Flight RAF
• No. 1563 Flight RAF
• 1 Air Defence Flight, RAF Regiment, six month roulement.

Source: Ivelaw Lloyd, Griffith (1993). The Quest for Security in the Caribbean

That is quite a lot of troops.

[Rainbow Six]

Yep. Whereas according to the British Army's website BATSUB currently has twelve permanent staff

https://www.army.mod.uk/deployments/belize/

Quite a difference...

[Mahatatain]

My presumption was that none of the British forces assigned to BATSUB counted as permanent staff and that those 12 mentioned were former forces personnel who had been recruited back as (technically) civilian employees (as you suggested previously).

That's just a guess though.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

My presumption was that none of the British forces assigned to BATSUB counted as permanent staff and that those 12 mentioned were former forces personnel who had been recruited back as (technically) civilian employees (as you suggested previously).

That's just a guess though.

i don't think I suggested anywhere that BATSUB would be hiring former personnel as civilian contractors. When I suggested to Rae that a former student might be invited back as an instructor i meant as an active duty member of the British Army.

Again, sorry if that wasn't clear but in any event I think this thread is drifting off on tangents unrelated to Rae's question, which i think was essentially possible back stories for a character who had prior service as an instructor at a British Army jungle warfare school.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

i don't think I suggested anywhere that BATSUB would be hiring former personnel as civilian contractors. When I suggested to Rae that a former student might be invited back as an instructor i meant as an active duty member of the British Army.

Again, sorry if that wasn't clear but in any event I think this thread is drifting off on tangents unrelated to Rae's question, which i think was essentially possible back stories for a character who had prior service as an instructor at a British Army jungle warfare school.

Sorry, I was interpreting "invited back" as "after finishing their military service" but that was clearly not what you meant. Sorry for any confusion.