canon versus non-canon in a non-supported game

[simonmark6]

Whether we like it or not, JB is canon, he was serving in the army at about that time. How long he survives once PCs get involved...that's another matter.

Can't remember if this is a tale about him or if it's me amalgamating stories but I'm sure he once claimed that he'd stopped World War Three because of something he did in Bosnia. Maybe he's been altering canon too.

Found it, just to prove I'm not delusional:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

[Rainbow Six]

I think he has made that claim...if memory serves it was something that happened in Kosovo...I can't remember but I think his unit may have beaten th Russians to Pristina Airport, something like that. I think there's a reference to it in General Sir Mike Jackson's autobiography (iirc Jackson suggests Blunt "exaggerated" his (Blunt's) role in the whole thing but I'd need to check the book to be sure).

Edit - just saw your edit...

[Eddie]

I've read "common thread," "common language," "common foundation," and "starting point" in this topic.

Shouldn't love of this game be the common thread?

As I stated before, and others have reiterated, if a person wants to create something with the intention of others using it, then they MUST stick with the information in the books, or, as Rainbow Six has done, give some pretty damn compelling reasons why they've made alterations, and detail exactly what they are.

Why? To both of these statements. If I write something and want others to be able to use it, why do I have to justify anything? Other than, "This was fun for us. I'll post it here. If you like it, try it out," that is.

Why argue about it? Unless we're playing together in the same campaign, it's not going to matter one bit. Although I used to enjoy these intellectual debates, too often, they turn into shouting matches and pissing contests. We lost a few members and our site admin the last time we opened this Pandora's Box. Maybe I'm a little gunshy, but I can see this "discussion" drifting into treacherous waters again...

Other than my first few weeks on the forum where I tried to break into the clique of the forumites here, I've been predominately a lurker. Over and over, in the 2-3 years I've been here, I see the same picture as Raellus describes in this quote.

I understand why Kato has passed the reins and stepped away from this forum. In fact, this latest round of "you must/no I don't"'s has left a very, very sour taste in my mouth and I think I'm going to do the same.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Whether we like it or not, JB is canon, he was serving in the army at about that time. How long he survives once PCs get involved...that's another matter.

Not at all. Canon simply means it's in the books. Who knows what JB would have done, or what would have happened to him if T2K was real. Would he really have survived the years of warfare and nukes, or like the majority of soldiers perished in the conflict?

Originally Posted by Eddie

Shouldn't love of this game be the common thread?

Of course it is. However, we all "love" in different ways. The books at least give us a set of facts/statements to work from, not just our own (sometimes fevered) imaginations and impressions of what years of war will look like. Throwing out the books is basically the same as opening the door to chaos.

Originally Posted by Eddie

If I write something and want others to be able to use it, why do I have to justify anything? Other than, "This was fun for us. I'll post it here. If you like it, try it out," that is.

There's NOBODY saying don't post it or saying that anybody is wrong to make changes, all that is being asked is that any variation to the books is identified as such and personal opinions aren't forced upon anyone else. The majority of people already make that differentiation without a problem, issues only arise when somebody makes sweeping statements that "their opinion is the only valid one."

[Olefin]

"To simply declare published materials as rubbish and demand all others agree with you is a recipe for conflict."

Leg - show me when I ever demanded that all others agree with me.

I have stated that the opinion I have about those two modules is shared by many on this forum including the late great Chico. And that in my opinion they are rubbish and were campaign killers.

That is hardly a demand.

And the only conflict I see being generated here is by you and a few other canon defenders who act like any deviation from canon is like spitting on the Bible.

And some of the holes in the canon are huge - there are multiple divisions in Korea - but we now almost nothing about that whole conflict except for how it affected the US and Russian divisions themselves. Africa is mentioned barely in the RDF module and a very little bit in Going Home and the Med Cruise - and thats it.

Frankly I could write ten Korean modules, and as long as I stay on the peninsula they can be just as much canon as anything Frank Frey ever wrote.

For those of us like Rainbow 6 and Chico and Paul who are doing a lot of work to expand the world of Twilight 2000 I say keep going and dont let comments from the canon defenders discourage you.

Who knows, if we issue enough fan canon then maybe someone will get the hint that the game still has a big enough following that it deserves to be picked up again as Twilight 2000. If not then the fan canon can bring that world more to life for those who are left.


And since some of those who wrote the modules for Twilight 2000 are here on this forum if they feel differently let them contact me - frankly I would love to talk to them. It would be an honor to talk to them in fact and tell them how much I have enjoyed their game over the years.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Who knows, if we issue enough fan canon then maybe someone will get the hint that the game still has a big enough following that it deserves to be picked up again as Twilight 2000.

http://www.farfuture.net/

Contact info is at the bottom of the page. Good luck and have your checkbook ready.

- C.

[Olefin]

I mean with new Twilight 2000 modules and support - not 2013

its a different game with a different set up

[James Langham]

Interestingly I never said he was alive...and he is a junior officer in a recce unit - not a good survival rate...

I rest my case that we can all interpret things differently from the same info! :-)

Originally Posted by simonmark6

Whether we like it or not, JB is canon, he was serving in the army at about that time. How long he survives once PCs get involved...that's another matter.

Can't remember if this is a tale about him or if it's me amalgamating stories but I'm sure he once claimed that he'd stopped World War Three because of something he did in Bosnia. Maybe he's been altering canon too.

Found it, just to prove I'm not delusional:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

[95th Rifleman]

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

I posted about the possible way a British unit evolves as the war progressed and asked for others input on how they handled this aspect and the first reply included this:

"None of that really matters that much though"

Now I'll be honest I'm angry and I think it applies to this paticular thread. How are we supposed to grow a community when anything that isn't canon is derided and people are discouraged from thinking outside the published box.

Some people on this forum and i'm sorry but Legbreaker appears the main culprit, take the attitude that if it isn't canon "none of it really matters".

I posted on this thread earlier about respecting opinions, I see little of it with such comments.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I mean with new Twilight 2000 modules and support - not 2013

its a different game with a different set up

I am vaguely aware of that.

My point is that Far Future owns the Twilight: 2000 property. Twilight: 2013 was published under a license agreement with FFE, which has since expired (along with 93 Games Studio, which was the other party involved in that license). Anyone else who wants to involve himself in commercial production of new Twilight: 2000 material in any form will need to negotiate with FFE for that right.

I've previously touched on the murky legal status of Twilight: 2013 and its rules system.

Also, you may want to do some reading in the last major thread we had regarding a post-2013 resurrection of the property.

- C.

[Olefin]

Rifleman dont let anyone on this forum with any comment made here discourage you from posting - frankly the canon defenders can ignore what you post or say it doesnt matter if they want to but the rest of us would love to see what you have to say.

As for who owns the property rights - fan canon productions marked clearly as such, given freely for people to enjoy can be posted to our hearts content - they may not be "official" - but there is nothing that says they cant be used for peoples games as much as anything GDW posted - you have to take them with a grain of salt in some ways

but I would rather have a vital campaign that uses non-canon material to flesh out the world of Twilight 2000 than one that runs out of material or wont go certain places because canon was either silent or because canon is exhausted

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

Post it. I'd post more frequently if I had more time for writing.

[Olefin]

I second Webstral's motion

[Webstral]

There was a time, going back at least four years now, that the forum was working towards building a common vision of the Twilight: 2000 world. The regulars had areas they liked a lot and upon which they focused their energies. Material would be posted, and folks would provide some helpful feedback. I got lots of helpful feedback during the early stages of Thunder Empire. Other members of the forum, some of whom are still around, gave me some very useful ideas on coping with the obvious food problems in southeastern Arizona.

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied “That won’t work”. I’m paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didn’t see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

For my own part, I’m still interested in developing a common vision. Our individual products only benefit from feedback. Of course, delivery and intent really do matter. I’m glad that Olefin is taking an interest in the Middle East post-Operation Omega. The region is rich with potential. As he posts material, I will do my best to provide feedback in the way we used to do it here. People who have come aboard in the past couple of years can see how it used to go and decide for themselves whether this is desirable.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Webstral

There was a time, going back at least four years now, that the forum was working towards building a common vision of the Twilight: 2000 world. The regulars had areas they liked a lot and upon which they focused their energies. Material would be posted, and folks would provide some helpful feedback. I got lots of helpful feedback during the early stages of Thunder Empire. Other members of the forum, some of whom are still around, gave me some very useful ideas on coping with the obvious food problems in southeastern Arizona.

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied “That won’t work”. I’m paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didn’t see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

For my own part, I’m still interested in developing a common vision. Our individual products only benefit from feedback. Of course, delivery and intent really do matter. I’m glad that Olefin is taking an interest in the Middle East post-Operation Omega. The region is rich with potential. As he posts material, I will do my best to provide feedback in the way we used to do it here. People who have come aboard in the past couple of years can see how it used to go and decide for themselves whether this is desirable.

Agreed: There is plenty of room to expand on things in the TW2K universe, be it V1, V2.2, or V3. And frankly there is a lot of knowledge in quite a few of the posters here that can make some fantastic user generated guides.

One of the reasons I posted the breakdown of forces taking part in Omega (Or not as the case may be) was to illustrate that even within Canon, there is four supported chains that can be followed: Those units that gave the whole US chain of command the middle finger - The new Austrian Duke for example - and stuck around in Europe, those that stayed within the chain, and stayed anyways - Have two options here: The guys stuck out on a limb to the east and those that stayed in Germany proper, 5 Corp heading to the Middle east, and yes, looking at the numbers in the books, there is solid evidence that more than a little heavy equipment headed that way, and yes, the Tarawa is a perfect means for that equipment there: Helo's on Deck, and you can pack a lot more than 14 tracks in the hanger. A lot more. Add in a few figs, and a couple of other transports, you got a decent sized force that is powerful enough to be left alone, and small enough to avoid being the sort of threat that demands all the stops being pull out to stop it. Then, for the forth, you have the manpower that headed back to the states: So many ways that path can be followed.


So yes, lets see what can be done with this. I have played a lot in the Austrian Alps in a lot of the games I have run, and more often than not, the groups I was with tended to do the duchy thing as well. So might have to sit back and think that over some and see what comes of it.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied “That won’t work”. I’m paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didn’t see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

You'll recall that I was right on board with the airships discussion. Airlords of the Ozarks is one of my favorite CONUS modules. As for the DC Group's departure and associated unhappiness, I regret ever having played any part in those disputes. Matter of fact, I'm pretty disappointed in myself for not self-editing more carefully some of my comments in discussions of the last few weeks. So, yeah, my apologies.

Sometimes I get so caught up in discussing one or two of the latest posts I've read, I lose sight of the big picture. It might not seem like it sometimes but I'm not rabidly pro-canon. I admit that I prefer to expand on or tweak canon over wholesale re-writes of it. Maybe that distinction sometimes gets lost a bit in my posts.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

...but I would rather have a vital campaign that uses non-canon material to flesh out the world of Twilight 2000 than one that runs out of material or wont go certain places because canon was either silent or because canon is exhausted

Ultimately, this is the responsibility of the GM and to some extent the Players, if a campaign runs out of steam because the GM slavishly followed published material and didn't bother to do anything more, then the GM is going to run out of stories to tell real quick for some game systems.

Originally Posted by Webstral

However, the blowout over the DC Group’s very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material—emphasis being on the phrase “working together”.

Much of that debate wasn't over what they wanted to do or who contributed what and when, it was when some people declared that it would be canon material and a lot of the debate was over what the meaning of "canon" actually is and no matter how well intentioned, anybody not given authority by the licence holder cannot actually make 'canon' material.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

As others have said, go for it...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

anybody not given authority by the licence holder cannot actually make 'canon' material.

Absolutely agree with that statement. No matter how well intentioned we are, no matter how good the material we produce is, even if other people use it, it is not canon and never can be.

Even if someone produced something about an area more or less untouched by canon (South Africa for example) and even if that material won plaudits from the entire community, it could not be considered canon in my opinion.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

...Even if someone produced something about an area more or less untouched by canon (South Africa for example) and even if that material won plaudits from the entire community, it could not be considered canon in my opinion.

And nor would it be considered 'canon' in any legal, ethical or moral sense.

[Olefin]

Actually it can be considered canon but as a fan canon - things like the Czechoslovak, Polish and Mexican field guides which support canon fully - are very useful for all fans without ever being officially issued by GDW or FarFuture

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually it can be considered canon but as a fan canon - things like the Czechoslovak, Polish and Mexican field guides which support canon fully - are very useful for all fans without ever being officially issued by GDW or FarFuture

I think we'll need to amicably agree to disagree on this one...

[Olefin]

thats fine Rainbow - and by the way your UK survivor guide is a great fan canon guide - and it can even work with the regular canon as to expanding some of the info in it - i.e. you can pick and choose some of your stuff to fill in areas of the UK but without contradicting the canon in any way

same with other fan canon areas - i.e. you can take some of their details and work them into canon modules but as added details that just make the module come alive more but in no way change that module otherwise

(i.e. use the Mexican Army fan sourcebook to correct the equipment in the City of Angels to match what they would have had instaed of the Soviet equipment - but on a one for one basis so its the same number of tanks or APC's, just more realistic equipment)

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And the only conflict I see being generated here is by you and a few other canon defenders who act like any deviation from canon is like spitting on the Bible.

After reading what is going on in the other thread, I feel the need to speak up.

While I personally enjoy seeing what different people come up with that expands on or deviates from cannon, I find your comment above disingenuous.

You didn't show up as a newcomer and just say "hey, here is my take on things and what my group did." You came in here as a newcomer and chose to stir the pot by calling out Legbreaker by name and inserting yourself into preexisting differences on matters of canon. If anyone generated conflict, it was you.

You've taken a very condescending tone toward others. You seem to have a desire to not just be right be right, but to prove that everyone else is wrong. We're talking about what is basically alternate history based on an RPG written in the 1980s. There may not always be one right answer, but instead many possible answers which people can pick and choose from as works best for their group. Your group's game evolved in a certain way - great! That means you had fun added detail where needed.

You've clearly given a lot of time and thought to your materials, and it comes through. I for one hope to see a lot more. But as someone else already said - it's not so much what you are saying, as how you are saying it. You may have read years worth of archived threads, but you are still the new guy.

[Sanjuro]

Having joined a few rpg forums over the last year or two, I have read on others about the damage done by "canon wars" (no pun intended). I had never actually seen one in action.
An escalating argument has managed to set people against each other, who previously could disagree amicably.
I would recommend the use of the "ignore all postings by this user" function if anyone offends you... assuming you haven't already used that function on my posts of course!
My personal opinion is that canon is only the material published by GDW, or officially licensed by them. Even the most logical assumption leading from published material can best be described as "canon infers that..."
If, as a group, we want to expand that canon in a joint way, that is still not canon... just a group expansion of "in my T2k world."
As others have said, the GDW T2k material was an immense piece of work by a small company, without the internet to help research, and while also supporting several other games. Much of the knowledge we use to contradict GDW stuff was in fact secret at the time the game was published- I have never forgotten the weird experience of seeing a TV news programme explain during GW1, how a certain weapon system worked. Only 5 or 6 years earlier I had seen a briefing of the same facts, preceded by the warning "You have all signed the Official Secrets Act- if you repeat or discuss this material you will almost certainly be sent to prison, probably for several years."
I have edited this post, in line with Raellus' warning, to remove the part assigning blame for the argument. With hindsight that was not helpful!

[Raellus]

Hi folks.

As a forum moderator, I feel the need to step in here. My cautionary post has been ignored and what I feared is coming to pass. Although most of you are approaching the current canon debate in a more or less responsible, respectful, and constructive manner, a couple of you are clearly not. As a result, I am seriously considering closing this and all other "canon discussion" threads. I will also be discussing this issue with my fellow moderators.

As a community, I really don't think we can afford the kind of drama and acrimony that chases off members. Please, everyone just chill out.

Raellus

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In deference to people who prefer a by the book T2k Canon (e.g. what and only what is printed in the rules and modules, plus Challenge magazine, end of story) I will always say from the outset or perhaps in a new thread that I start "this is non-canon". I tend towards my T2k as more of a "cozy catastrophe" and tend to get away from canon more than a little bit here or there (like the drought and the casualties therefrom), so any efforts or offerings I have will have those leanings.

However, I have tried to steer clear of anything too egregious (Patriot missiles knocking down most of the inbound contacts on Thanksgiving Day, the USN still being mostly intact, etc.) but should I skate that direction I certainly won't "push" it (like saying "hey since the books don't mention any B52s being shot down, we must still have an operational B52 fleet, canon supports it." - that's a bit over the top but I think y'all get where I'm coming from.

Now I am officially out of the business of T2k Forum Drama. I love the overall game, I'd play whether someone was running strict canon or homebrew or whatever, and I am going to go back to talking about T2k, not the politics of canon v. non-canon.