Twilight 2013 - How are you going to use it?

[Targan]

I will have a lot more to say about T:2013 both here and elsewhere very soon but let me say this now, in brief: I'm not really down with the 2013 timeline (I agree strongly with many of the views of those at this forum who are critical of the timeline) but...

[this may come as a huge shock to those of you who know well my love for the system I currently use]

... the 2013 combat and character generation systems are the bomb. Seriously very, very good work. In my opinion those two facets alone justify its purchase. The new rules absolutely address most of the problems that many people active on this forum have previously pointed out with previous editions of T2K. I think that combining the revised timeline being developed by the DC Working Group and these new 2013 rules could be used to create new campaigns of real quality and excellence.

I urge those of you who have serious problems with the 2013 timeline to ignore that timeline and have a good look at the 2013 combat and char gen rules because they are things of great beauty.

[Snake Eyes]

Apparently another option needs to be added to the poll:

"I won't actually stoop to paying for 2013 but I'll gleefully download a pirated .torrent of it."

[LAW0306]

i would not even waste my time to do that.........

[Mohoender]

And I thought I could have been mean. You are a bit hard guys.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

Apparently another option needs to be added to the poll:

"I won't actually stoop to paying for 2013 but I'll gleefully download a pirated .torrent of it."

Oh, I'd use Usenet. BitTorrent is spyware!

[Targan]

Jokes aside, 93 Games Studio is a small operation and even if people have issues with the timeline in the game or whatever I would strongly urge people not to seek pirate copies of the game. The authors and developers have put years of their lives and some of their hearts and souls into this project. They are T2Kers just like us. They deserve some level of respect at least for those reasons.

Just sayin'.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

Jokes aside, 93 Games Studio is a small operation and even if people have issues with the timeline in the game or whatever I would strongly urge people not to seek pirate copies of the game. The authors and developers have put years of their lives and some of their hearts and souls into this project. They are T2Kers just like us. They deserve some level of respect at least for those reasons.

Just sayin'.

I agree, couldn't say better. Moreover, they still do as proven by their website.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Jokes aside, 93 Games Studio is a small operation and even if people have issues with the timeline in the game or whatever I would strongly urge people not to seek pirate copies of the game. The authors and developers have put years of their lives and some of their hearts and souls into this project. They are T2Kers just like us. They deserve some level of respect at least for those reasons.

Just sayin'.

Yeah I know -- it'll be a late Christmas present for myself.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I found them very poor when it comes to equipments and even more so when it come to illiustration (a pity).

Originally Posted by Mohoender

The other weak point is about the equipments but that is from personnal taste. I like to have a wide range of equipments to draw on.

I'm curious as to why you consider the equipment selection poor. I'll admit that we don't have as much in the way of military small arms as 2.0/2.2 did, but the civilian selection is much larger (if anyone's interested about the reasoning behind that design decision, there's a discussion of it over in the 93GS weapons forum). As for non-weapon equipment... maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but the 2013 core book has 36 pages of non-weapon personal gear, compared to six in the 2.0 core. That doesn't really feel "poor" to me, but I'm a bit biased...

- C.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

The background, no matter how good, wont replace v1.0. But for new (ie under 25 years of age?) players a new background that sits better with their own real world history it might suit.

Originally Posted by Marc

I totally agree with you about this point. I have forgotten all the new blood that may be wishing to explore the possibilities of a new Twilight setup. Mmmmm.. perhaps I'm getting older?

That was a not-insignificant decision that we made very early in the design process. We could have gone with a third Cold War alternate history, but we chose to build this apocalypse on today's fears rather than those of two decades ago. Quite frankly, we expected a significant portion of the existing fan base to have the reaction to our storyline that I'm seeing here. However, I'd like to think that the Reflex System is just as viable for use with the 1.0 and 2.0/2.2 timelines as it is with ours. Some modifications to the Last Year lifepath phases would be in order, but that's a trivial task.

- C.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

Kato, I've been chewing this one over since this thread came to my attention last week, and I have to admit that I'm more than a little perplexed by your statement here. I kept a fairly low profile on both this board and the various T2k mailing lists because of a few vocally negative reactions to early information about the 2013 project, and because Keith (smokewolf) was handling playtester/consultant recruiting along with all other personnel matters. I know a few of our playtesters are active here, but I think it'd be obvious if you were referring to them. As far as I can recall, the only person to whom I've coldly and deliberately been an ass in my "2013 systems guy" persona was Justin Oldham on our forums, and, given the provocation he offered, I still stand by my statements in that thread. If I said something in this forum's previous incarnation that gave offense to a specific member or the general audience, please bring it to my attention.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

I've often said that this industry is really more of a subsidized hobby. In a lot of cases, the only difference between "amateur" and "professional" is that the so-called pro was lucky enough to catch the attention of a developer or publisher and stupid enough to sign a contract. However, no one gets rich doing this. We're all doing it out of passion.

- C.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but the 2013 core book has 36 pages of non-weapon personal gear, compared to six in the 2.0 core.
- C.

This is the first thing I have read that really interests me about T2013. I am a bit of an equipment and logistics nut.

Since I have not posted one for a while here is a shameless plug for my gaming site, which will eventually have a full character shopping cart system, allowing you to equip characters with any of the literally thousands of pieces of equipment I am currently databasing.

http://games.juhlin.com (sorry you have to register again I was not able to unify the logins when RPGhost closing early forced the forum launch)

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by kato13

This is the first thing I have read that really interests me about T2013. I am a bit of an equipment and logistics nut.

Oh, good! Now I know who to blame for stacking my poll on future equipment support.

Since I have not posted one for a while here is a shameless plug for my gaming site, which will eventually have a full character shopping cart system, allowing you to equip characters with any of the literally thousands of pieces of equipment I am currently databasing.

I'll register and poke at it after dinner. This looks to be made of pure awesome.

- C.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

Kato brother... uhmm.. who was condesending? I hope I wasn't 'cause I've been workign onthis project since 1996 (yea... 1996). When Mr. Taylor got a hold of me (early 2006 I think) I jumped right on board. BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution - we both turned it down.

I DON'T wanna start any flaming or anything but guys, really, please look at the rules and read them over before you make any decisions. If you're not happy withthe timeline hey then use your own or use the old one. The timeline is "vague" for a reason.

AND Im a HUGE gear whore - let me correect myself - WHORE and Im very happy with the work that was done in the book.

We are ALL brothers in here with the same goal in mind. Having fun correct?

Max

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Kato brother... uhmm.. who was condesending? I hope I wasn't 'cause I've been workign onthis project since 1996 (yea... 1996). When Mr. Taylor got a hold of me (early 2006 I think) I jumped right on board. BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution - we both turned it down.

I honestly don't remember all the details as I was not personally involved, though i believe accusations of lying were thrown about. I remember being really excited and then dejected after seeing really bad interactions. As someone who had thought about T2k practically every day (little things like while driving thinking "what would have happened to that fence, generator, or water tower") it must have been serious to have deflated my balloon like that.

I just want to make it clear that my recent interactions with the 93GS people have been exemplary and my interest has now overcome all of my original negativity. I was only being honest about what I remember.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Kato, I've been chewing this one over since this thread came to my attention last week, and I have to admit that I'm more than a little perplexed by your statement here. I kept a fairly low profile on both this board and the various T2k mailing lists because of a few vocally negative reactions to early information about the 2013 project, and because Keith (smokewolf) was handling playtester/consultant recruiting along with all other personnel matters. I know a few of our playtesters are active here, but I think it'd be obvious if you were referring to them. As far as I can recall, the only person to whom I've coldly and deliberately been an ass in my "2013 systems guy" persona was Justin Oldham on our forums, and, given the provocation he offered, I still stand by my statements in that thread. If I said something in this forum's previous incarnation that gave offense to a specific member or the general audience, please bring it to my attention.

As I said in my previous thread I don't remember all the details nor everyone who was involved. I am not a negative person and I don't hold on to negativity. I do remember arguments about DD214s??? Accusations that people were not what they claimed to be, and in general the attitude of if you don't like what we are saying screw you.

I pull away from negativity, I don't focus on it, and that was my impulse after the first contact with this board. It could have been deadline stress. It could have been a lack of understanding of the general level of respect I expected on this board. It could have been me coming into the middle of an argument. I don't know. I just know that something very early on turned me WAY off. My memory could very easily be flawed but I cannot fathom how my excitement could turn to dejection over nothing.

As far as I am concerned I consider it water under the bridge. Everyone I have dealt with recently has been more than honorable and I am looking forward to getting the book soon.

[smokewolf]

Kato, I PM'ed you.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution

It's true. I'm just a fan. And happy to be here. I fly the 93 Games flag around these parts because I'm an old school Twilight player who thinks 2013 is a cool, playable system that really captures the feel of post-apocalyptic survival with equal parts grit and tactical realism - not because I get compensated for it. Although, come to think of it, Keith does usually pay for beers when he's in town.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Yea he does pay for Indian food..... btw - let me just clear somethign up I don't hold any stock or anything in 93GS. I re-read my post and to me it sounded like I was part of it. I'm not - just a fan.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I'm curious as to why you consider the equipment selection poor. I'll admit that we don't have as much in the way of military small arms as 2.0/2.2 did, but the civilian selection is much larger (if anyone's interested about the reasoning behind that design decision, there's a discussion of it over in the 93GS weapons forum). As for non-weapon equipment... maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but the 2013 core book has 36 pages of non-weapon personal gear, compared to six in the 2.0 core. That doesn't really feel "poor" to me, but I'm a bit biased...

- C.

OK, it seems you haven't read all my posts.

First, I have seen the discussion going on at your website and as I said, I found your point very well defended. Actually, I advised people to go and check it as I really found it interesting. I might still have registered there but I don't have time to talk in tow places, sorry about that.

Second, one of the weak point I found comes from the lack of illustration and also from the general feeling given by that section. I understand that you had to make a choice but I don't agree with many of them (again that's personnal). For exemple, the Warrior is only used by UK and would be found in very small number. In addition you chose the BMP-2, why not, but it would have been wiser in my opinion to still get the BMP-1 (still in much wider service). The TPz-1 is one of the very rare vehicle. Moreover, you lack more modern vehicles except for the striker (used by US only). In addition I found the list of lighter or specific vehicle (mine resistant) a little poor (too generalist) while I haven't seen any aircraft. I liked your civilian section so but I have trouble finding what these vehicles stand for (still from the lack of illustrations). Nevertheless, all that comes from personnal taste and expectations. Then, I'm waiting from the coming add-on and I know from personnal experience that editing an RPG is not that easy, and finding an illustrator is hell. So don't let people down and keep up with the good work. As I said, I have already seen very interesting points in the rules and as you said, adapting the older materials might not be that hard (but with time going by, I'm getting leasy).

Finally, I never ran in the 2.0 version but the v.2.2 had more than 70 pages. I don't remeber for the v.1.0 but that is a much lighter book.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I've often said that this industry is really more of a subsidized hobby. In a lot of cases, the only difference between "amateur" and "professional" is that the so-called pro was lucky enough to catch the attention of a developer or publisher and stupid enough to sign a contract. However, no one gets rich doing this. We're all doing it out of passion.

- C.

So much truth into this.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Oh, good! Now I know who to blame for stacking my poll on future equipment support.


I'll register and poke at it after dinner. This looks to be made of pure awesome.

- C.

You might have to blame me as well.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

I DON'T wanna start any flaming or anything but guys, really, please look at the rules and read them over before you make any decisions. If you're not happy withthe timeline hey then use your own or use the old one. The timeline is "vague" for a reason.


Max

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Oh, good! Now I know who to blame for stacking my poll on future equipment support.
- C.

While that does look like my handiwork, as I know quite a bit about web socket connections (web bots), I am only responsible for one vote. Given I am from Chicago that is doubly surprising.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

I did not have my hand at writign the "destroctor" part of the rules. We were all asked to read through it and see if it made sense. While not all of us agreed 100% with EVERYTHING we all thought it was broad enough that it was plausible. Remember gang this is a game and fictional at that. ANYTHING is possible - look we even elected a Black president with a Islamic name who can't/won't prove that he was born in the USA.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

So long as things stay civil and respectful, I've no problem sitting down and typing about the thoughts behind the timeline and such. Here or my place doesn't matter to me (if here, if Kato has no problem I'll dual post everything at my place). Feel free to start up a thread asking something and I'll be happy to see if I can help make sense of it all from our point of view.

[kato13]

Since this got bumped for new votes I thought I would change my original vote. I was "Planning to buy" I am now "T2k timeline and T2k13 rules". I will still use my custom system for task resolution, but I am certainly lifting a significant portion of the T2k13 character creation.

[cavtroop]

Yeah, you can't officially change your vote, but I feel the same. The quick one off I've run so far has convinced me to run T;2013, with the t:2000 v1 timeline (more or less).

If I can ever get everyone together again

[kato13]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

Yeah, you can't officially change your vote

I can .

Super admin powers activate.

Changed yours similar to mine.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kato13

Since this got bumped for new votes I thought I would change my original vote. I was "Planning to buy" I am now "T2k timeline and T2k13 rules". I will still use my custom system for task resolution, but I am certainly lifting a significant portion of the T2k13 character creation.

That sounds like an ideal plan.