How would it go wrong TODAY? (reopened - play nice)

[Brother in Arms]

Firstly

Stackmouse....Welcome!

And I agree Finland would never side with the Russians! The Winter War is huge source of pride among the Finns...They fought the Russians first alone! And handed their ass's to them, then fought them again this time sided with Germany. Then they fought the Germans and beat them too.

(OT: Finland is an amazing country with some of the most beutiful women I have ever seen By the way I got my M39 sitting here right next to the Computer)

Secondly:
Reading these time lines made me feel a bit queezy. They are so potentially real they are frightening though I do think certain aspects need to be toned down slightly. Because if all this stuff happened at once average Joe would be really scared and would start so much domestic mahem it would affect the time line. I will re-read it again and think if I can offer some suggestions.

Thirdly:
If you need any NPC's for your game I know one. Possibly two My best freind Sean lives in the ATL and is also a gunsmith and firearms enthusiast. Currently his wife from Sicily is about ready to have a baby. So I am considering going down there to visit them (if I can get this wisdom tooth pulled out)He also has my M1 Garand, that I need to pick up. Which is another good reason to go there. So depending on your time line of when things get hot, you got one or two well armed and somewhat trained NPC's. He and I both are High power shooters and gunsmiths by trade.

Brother in Arms

[Haven]

LOL sweet, BiA

We've actually recently kicked off the EMP and right now there is a lull in the storm between when everyone just kinda thinks it is a regular power outage then digression to shear panic once everyone realizes that the S*** has in fact hit the fan.

The PC's, probably because I am being an overly generous GM, have a leg up on this info and have already hijacked a 1960s truck and driven to a safe house with all their personal arsenals.

Unfortunately, Atlanta has very little strategic importance besides being the central population hub of Georgia (and some would say the South East). So coming up with a reason for my PC’s to go into that maelstrom rather than hiding out about 20 min north (by car) of ATL is a bit of a problem.

Its possible you’ve just given me the answer, with a relative or good friend that is working in ATL gets in touch with them some how and needs an escort out of the looting, panic, etc that ATL will be.

Then the Chinese/Russians/EU 'peacekeepers' will start showing up via Airdrop and Airplane…not to mention Nat'l Guard still in the area.

Also added is the fact that most likely Milgov and Civgov will split over how to handle the invasion on the West coast and due to lack of communications from DC and Airforce 1 and that will then create some more drama.

[LAW0306]

Great Fantasy work here but being in the military now let me eat some holes...One

EMP most of our stuff is now protected from it and has been for the last 10 to 15 years..so no effect there..

two..

Invasion..how will they get here. no other country in the world has an airforce or navy large enough to make it accross the lake or the logistical support to supprot there troops here..

our navy largest in the world and most powerfull would sink or shoot down any thing coming even the most modern stuff from anyone else..

our nukes..we would make anyone glow if the even came close to our coast.

command and control the milgov and civ gov split could never happen trust me on this if ..i say more i goto jail just trust me on this one..

our ground troops..just two of our divisions beat down Iraq in 3 weeks of combat.. so the other 10 we have at home would crush anyone on our home turf not to mention our 8 NG divisions and the 2 to 8 million armed former military members that would come out of the wood work and the 2 to 8 million non ex military members that are armed that would show up... so who has that much power no one..

[Spoe]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

EMP most of our stuff is now protected from it and has been for the last 10 to 15 years..so no effect there..

Military equipment, yes. But civilian electronics? Not so much (pretty much no intentional protection at all). I wrote the sidebar for EMP effects for TW2013 and did pretty significant research on this.

Regarding the timeline, well, I threw some ideas their way early one but didn't have much input thereafter so I'll refrain from commenting (unless Smokewolf tells me to go ahead).

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Spoe

Regarding the timeline, well, I threw some ideas their way early one but didn't have much input thereafter so I'll refrain from commenting (unless Smokewolf tells me to go ahead).

Feel free to.

[kato13]

I am a huge fan of realism and accuracy. I carry a pocket digital scale with me so I can weigh items I see during the day for my equipment database. (Note if I am ever stopped by the police I am sure they will consider me a drug dealer.)

I want my games to be as realistic as possible, but I see the reasons some compromise realism for game play. Methanol production is my largest pet peeve in the game, but if others want to use it to enhance their characters movement it is cool with me.

For one example regarding time lines I never liked Division Cuba going to Mexico as I felt they should go to Nicaragua. But if the time line was not written the way it was there would be little reason to have fun soviet equipment in the US, and no common enemy for all us sons of the Cold war to rally against.

[smokewolf]

Just some food for thought...

http://stop-emp.com/index2.html

They have white papers and such discussing EMP effects.

A good read was the:
CRS Report for Congress
High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP) and High Power Microwave (HPM) Devices: Threat Assessments - http://stop-emp.com/crs.pdf

Especially the sections dealing with Private Sector Vulnerability and Military Vulnerability.

Also of good read was the US Congressional EMP Commission report - http://stop-emp.com/EMPCExecRpt_Final072204.pdf .

[Marc]

Very interesting material, Smokewolf.

[Haven]

So confused as to which timeline we're talking about now....

One thing (i think) ... that i wanted to mention is that the military C&C will still be largely intact (hardened against EMP) but my campaign will be largely about civilians and I am assuming that infrastructure is not hardened.

But ultimately my campaign would be considered Hollywood next to any real close scrutiny .... and i am ok with that =)

However I do welcome the feedback and you've given me a lot to think about in terms of active/reserve military at home.
Also China would have boosted its Navy during the build up but again I accept that this is probably an impossible amount of time to compete with the US Navy.
But again i am sorta counting on them to be in the Persian gulf and not on the west coast.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Haven

Turning Point -
September 11th 2010 – In a coordinated effort most major cities on the east coast are car and truck bombed. The US responds with emergency relief and a declaration of a national state of emergency and within days begins to lick its wounds and point fingers much like the 2001 attacks as a nation mourns 2200 deaths.
The terrorists however, have other plans and follow up the original attacks with a second round of attacks the following week.

Chinese, European, Latin American, and Russian PMC (Private Military Contractor) groups are hired by unknown backers to further confuse the situation and to prevent racial profiling.
These groups also bring an additional level of sophistication to these attacks and are rarely caught, captured, or killed without overwhelming force.

I like where you're going with this. It's got my mind thinking about Mexican day laborers being hired to drive the vehicles or deliver suitcases to buildings, etc.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Haven

Turning Point -
September 11th 2010 – In a coordinated effort most major cities on the east coast are car and truck bombed. The US responds with emergency relief and a declaration of a national state of emergency and within days begins to lick its wounds and point fingers much like the 2001 attacks as a nation mourns 2200 deaths.
The terrorists however, have other plans and follow up the original attacks with a second round of attacks the following week.

Chinese, European, Latin American, and Russian PMC (Private Military Contractor) groups are hired by unknown backers to further confuse the situation and to prevent racial profiling.
These groups also bring an additional level of sophistication to these attacks and are rarely caught, captured, or killed without overwhelming force.

Also, I remember back after 9/11 that there were "news" reports about a doctor conspiracy. That one of the reasons why in America there were lots of "muslim" doctors and IT workers (although I think most would be Hindu) was that they were trying to kill us with medicine and bad treatments and probing our electronic defenses from the inside. And when the time was right, they'd be in place for the large scale assaults.

There could be some pretty good options using this mentality.

Doctors showing up as first responders, killing survivors.
Doctors inoculating first responders with poisons.
Doctors being suicide bombers in the hospitals, wouldn't even need military grade explosives, got everything they need in the hospital.
IT workers crashing the internet.
IT workers flooding the internet with false information. Can you imagine if one of them hacked into the warning system colleges are using now adays to alert students to campus threats?

[Haven]

I totally respect everyone's opinion here.

And I do think an 'agree to disagree' is probably the best option.



I think in response to LAW's comments would be: The mothballing of a vast majority of our Navy and overall Military force in light of a new 'diplomacy is the best option and we need to cut costs' administration.

And this would allow Russia and China to gain strength/catch up and cut down our military supremacy.

Again this is fantasy and is an extreme version of the current administration.





In response to Smokewolf - when i was thinking of that particular part and how to really tip the balance in favor of chaos was the line in 'Body of Lies' where Russell Crowe mentions "What the terrorist are finding out is that the world as we know it is a lot more vulnerable than we might think"

Or some such line...

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Well guys my 2 cents on the Mexican border is that you can probably sneak in a couple of platoon sized elements over a few weeks and scatter them throughout So. Cal ALONE with no problem. And when I mean the mexican border I mean from CA to TX.

So imagine how much stuff gets accross our borders on a weekly basis.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Phase three;
From luke warm relations to hot war only take 31 hours on the Korean peninsula. NKA troops surge down over the DMZ and in a surprise manoeuvre, repeat MacArthur's landing at Seoul (albeit with many more losses). The world, with foreign troops dashing across the globe trying to put out brushfires, can do little as China lunges across the straights and into Taiwan.

I can't say everything about what I know, but that's surprisingly possible -- even right now. Losses would be massive on both sides -- very quickly. And it could quickly and easily spill out of the peninsula.

Just a little correction, though -- MacArthur's landing was at Inchon. There's a decent-sized river, but Seoul is inland.

Here's an interesting factoid: Seoul and Pyongyang are within easy artillery rocket range of each other!

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Haven

In response to Smokewolf - when i was thinking of that particular part and how to really tip the balance in favor of chaos was the line in 'Body of Lies' where Russell Crowe mentions "What the terrorist are finding out is that the world as we know it is a lot more vulnerable than we might think"

Or some such line...

Thanks. I didn't know about this movie. Now I have something to go rent and watch.

[Haven]

You'll have to try and catch it in theaters or more likely DVD when it comes out.


Here we go...

Ed Hoffman: Our world as we know it is much simpler...to put to an end than you might think.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Haven

Ed Hoffman: Our world as we know it is much simpler...to put to an end than you might think.

That sounds like a perfect tagline for the Twilight War.

Better than...all Natalya wanted was a pony.

[kato13]

I have pruned this thread of some unpleasantness. If you had useful information in the old thread please cut and paste it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by smokewolf

That sounds like a perfect tagline for the Twilight War.

Better than...all Natalya wanted was a pony.

How about: All Natalya wanted was a pony...but ended up eating it a few months later...

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

Great Fantasy work here but being in the military now let me eat some holes...One

EMP most of our stuff is now protected from it and has been for the last 10 to 15 years..so no effect there..

two..

Invasion..how will they get here. no other country in the world has an airforce or navy large enough to make it accross the lake or the logistical support to supprot there troops here..

our navy largest in the world and most powerfull would sink or shoot down any thing coming even the most modern stuff from anyone else..

our nukes..we would make anyone glow if the even came close to our coast.

command and control the milgov and civ gov split could never happen trust me on this if ..i say more i goto jail just trust me on this one..

our ground troops..just two of our divisions beat down Iraq in 3 weeks of combat.. so the other 10 we have at home would crush anyone on our home turf not to mention our 8 NG divisions and the 2 to 8 million armed former military members that would come out of the wood work and the 2 to 8 million non ex military members that are armed that would show up... so who has that much power no one..

EMPs and effects on electrical or electronic equipment is still debated - catastrophic damage seems a likely outcome in many plausible scenarios.Hardening of electronic circuits against emp apply to some equipment ,but not all .Nor can hardening equipment protect it in all circumstances . (Farraday cages not practical /antennae are up ,circuits rely on silicon chips rather than vacuum tubes -like much eastern bloc equipment have )

The power of the armed forces is undeniable and all well and good if the enemy presents himself in a regular war -or even in an irregular one such as the current ones you are fighting -and might be winning by the looks of it .It is a lot easier if the enemy is someone easily "alienated" by your own side .Get into a grey zone and people will start making decisisons that mix things up a lot. ( say for instance a blue and grey zone )

But breakdown of civil services and supply lines would cause unrest ,making the 150 000 000 firearms in private ownership in the US a liability rather than an asset for someone running an operation to get things to simmer down .Not that average people would turn their back on the goverment and country for no reason or commit crimes just for the hell of it -but more that interests would collide and the needs of loved ones might conquer law and principle -for instance if food or fuel got scarce the question of who is to control distribution would quickly turn ugly imho.(h for humble as always -but this is a discussion so..)

Not to mention the situations you would have were things are really bad -look to the situation after recent tropical storms,earthquakes and the publics reaction to certain methods used by law enforcement in apprehending criminals in certain instances .Sparks will fly and there is no denying that a society under pressure is highly combustible.

As for an outright invasion - no one can touch the CONUS - probably not the overseas territories and states either .

If things should go TWILIGHT wrong from now until 2011 I lean to explanations such as massive terrorist/assymetrical attacks targeting vital functions combined with psy ops to achieve destabilization and lawlessness .As soon as a conventional enemy shows himself -like an insurgent coalition or an invader, people will rally for the fight.

As for a split in the command/governing structure - this might very well occur as long as sufficient chaos is instigated -civgov/milgov might not be the name of it ( more likely milgov/milgov) , nevertheless wide distances alone is sufficient to make for differences in a governing body .Throw in a hundred or thousands of miles of lawless terrain between the seat of power and the areas it is supposed to rule and disrupted communications - things are bound to get mixed up .Add a human factor that might not be positive - you can get a pretty good plot out of it .For a game that is .As for real life -this has happened several times throughout history to powerful states in times of crisis.

History repeats itself.

I dont think it will today though.

hehe