Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[Olefin]

One tank is worth a lot of technicals in combat - for one just the fact that the crew is under armor and protected much better than a gun truck or technical is worth a lot in combat.

Plus you have the ability to use the weight of the tank for crushing attacks that a technical doesnt have, plus the ability to have a fully armored pillbox when you are low on fuel.

If you want to see the value of even a single tank in combat look at the landings on Tarawa - only a couple of the USMC Shermans in the first day got ashore and survived to fight with the Marines - but their effect in supporting the Marines was very important.

You can see their effect clearly in the Europe modules - one of the reasons Krakow is such a powerful force is the fact that they have operational tanks left in their arsenal.

Even a single operational platoon of tanks has a huge effect on the operational capability of any unit.

[natehale1971]

I have a feeling that the tanks and other AFVs would more than likely be held in reserve and not used for common patrols... that's what technicals would actually really excel at. providing support for patrols, and holding enemies in place until the tanks/AFVs can arrive to deal with things that the patrol can't handle on their own. During an actual combat, the Tanks and AFVs would be worth their weights in gold... hell, lead would be worth a hell of a lot more than gold in the Twilight 2000 setting.

[bobcat]

has anyone also thought about the CD stockpiles. theres warehouses throughout the united states filled with weapons from WW2 and korea. and im not just talking garands and M1911's here we're talking bazookas, M1919's, M2HB's, BAR's, Thompsons, jeeps, tanks, halftracks. all set aside for if the national militia ever had to be used. and not just guns either, there are similar stockpiles of fuel, supplies, ammo, replacement parts, tools, everything you need can be found if you know what warehouse its in.

[Legbreaker]

And you can be sure that stuff would be used at some point, probably the moment the Mexicans and Soviets took their first step into Texas and Alaska.
New America might even have purloined a few of the dumps over the previous couple of years - get a few of their own people into positions of authority...

[headquarters]

Sure, I realize this. I was merely trying to point out that a tank is fuel thirsty and that it might be reliant on parts that are not commonly available. It also needs a trailer crew.

A technical on the other hand is a lot of bang for buck and it is easier to keep operational.

As Olefin rightly points out it wouldnt be much of a match for a tank. Nor would say 5 of them given the right terrain for the tank. But You gotta factor in the resources it takes to keep a tank running.

Running a smal militia I think I might be better of having a dozen technicals rather Thanks one tank. There is aften all a need to be mobile, patrolling,raids to be made etc.

Originally Posted by Olefin

One tank is worth a lot of technicals in combat - for one just the fact that the crew is under armor and protected much better than a gun truck or technical is worth a lot in combat.

Plus you have the ability to use the weight of the tank for crushing attacks that a technical doesnt have, plus the ability to have a fully armored pillbox when you are low on fuel.

If you want to see the value of even a single tank in combat look at the landings on Tarawa - only a couple of the USMC Shermans in the first day got ashore and survived to fight with the Marines - but their effect in supporting the Marines was very important.

You can see their effect clearly in the Europe modules - one of the reasons Krakow is such a powerful force is the fact that they have operational tanks left in their arsenal.

Even a single operational platoon of tanks has a huge effect on the operational capability of any unit.

[James Langham]

A tank is worth a number of technicals IF USED CORRECTLY. Compare the losses between Chad and Libya in the Toyota Wars where techincals with ATGMs dominated. In my TW2000 background this fueled the US light infantry experiments with FAVs.

[Apache6]

For home guard and militia units, I believe that the conversion and maintenance of gun trucks, armored and equipped with MGs, grenade launchers, rocket launchers or ATGMs is going to be far more effective than the repair and maintenance of AFVs, particullarly tracked vehicles. It's just easier to maintain wheeled vehicles, and they are FAR more common, and so are their parts.

Yes, select units might be able to repair and maintain and operate an old M-48 tank taken off display at the local VFW.

I think just about any community of any size could convert and maintain far more gun trucks. Selecting a common base vehicle for conversion would make sense and result in lots of parts being availalbe. For example a county public works fleet with a fleet of heavy trucks used for snow plowing/salting..., or a construction companies fleet of dump trucks would be a good place to start if the company has 20 dump trucks, six might be converted with the others being stripped for parts.

Is a M-48 more effective then one (or 10) gun trucks? For what mission? Patrolling the roads, no, the gun truck(s) is better. Supporting an assualt against a fixed enemy position? The M-48 is better. Mobile offensive operations? I think in general several gun trucks would likely be more effective and certainly 'cost effective' then a single tank. Convoy security? Gun trucks are better. A tank undoubtedly has a prescense that a gun truck does not, and may very well be able to deter threats that the gun trucks can not.

[WallShadow]

One factor I haven't noticed being mentioned is WHERE the fighting is taking place--is it in the crossed and re-crossed continental battlefield of Europe, or is it in a somewhat-devastated but not by armies area, like most of the US or Canada.

The prevailing available firepower that a vehicle might encounter is one of the factors that will drive a locale to generate 10-20 guntrucks over one relatively invulnerable but resource-hungry back-from-the-boneyard M48. Something that has a reasonable chance of surviving a hit from a relatively easily-available anti-tank munition--say, a 40mm HEDP GL round-- would seem to be the lowest common denominator. Just how many LAWs, Recoilless rifles, Carl Gustav's, bazookas, or RPG-7s are floating about the area will be weighing heavily on the defender/refurbisher/road-warrior' mind.

And then you have the home-grown MRL system hatched from PVC pipe and homebrewed propellant & warhead filling, as described in Urban Guerrilla...if you're smart enough to make them, is your predatory neighbor also that smart? Or smarter? Shaped charges are not hard to make, kids!

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that there is a very functional use for an old Stuart, Sherman, M48 or M60 that was brought back from the boneyard or was a collector's tank (and there are lots of them here in the US by the way that are fully operational, some with live barrels) - and that is as a deterrent to attack.

Even if the tank never goes on patrol, never does convoy escort, heck never even leaves the town square, a lot of marauders would think twice about taking on a town that has an operational tank as part of its armaments. That was one reason that Krakow wasnt sacked in Poland - because they still had those tanks and other towns didnt.


Think about the fun during the initial escape from Kalisz everyone had - for those trying to get across the bridge at Sieradz those three tanks there, only one of which was fully operational, really made it a pain in the butt, especially as the rest of what was there was basically close to unarmed (half of them only had pistols if I remember right)

Take those three tanks out and its a cake walk to get across that bridge with any kind of armored vehicle - with them there you better be packing a Bradley or a M-1 or have Humvees with TOW launchers on them or you arent going to make it on a vehicle

same with Home Guard units - its one thing to take on gun trucks armed with a 50 caliber MG - its another to take on a functional Sherman tank that has shells for its cannon and a crew that knows how to use them

[natehale1971]

Does anyone have any good reference pics, maps/floor plans of a National Guard Armory facilities? I'm going to see if i can get my roommates to take me to the old Armory and the new one this weekend so i can take some pictures to get a feel for them so i can get a good idea of how to capture them in what i've been working on.

[Legbreaker]

I think you might run into a few security issues if you try taking pictures. If you don't, somebody on site isn't doing their job properly!

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I think you might run into a few security issues if you try taking pictures. If you don't, somebody on site isn't doing their job properly!

The old armory shouldn't really raise problems since it's the one i am wanting to get the most info on since it was originally built back in the early 1900s... thankfuly the wife of one of the senior NCOs in the local Guard unit use to work with me at the Wafflehouse before my accident, and i'm hoping that he'll be able to help me with my questions.

[bobcat]

another thing to consider is the effects on improvised tanks. such as the modified artillery tractors used in Chechnya. not the best armor in the world but better off road capability than gun trucks and can bring a bit more bang to the party.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm. Even if local militias can get the engines running on WW2 vintage armor or M48s doesn't mean they'll have access to one single round of main gun ammo for those tanks. If there is any ammo buried at the back of some bunkers in insane war reserve or to support foreign military sales, that doesn't inherently imply that there is either will or ability for post-TDM senior American commanders to push those assets out to local militias, whatever their loyalty.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm.

Absolutely. I and several other posters in this thread have been discussing the use of obsolete MBTs with the assumption that main gun ammo would either be negligible or non-existant.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I'd also have to ask where the ammo is coming from for any tank using a gun earlier than the 105mm. Even if local militias can get the engines running on WW2 vintage armor or M48s doesn't mean they'll have access to one single round of main gun ammo for those tanks. If there is any ammo buried at the back of some bunkers in insane war reserve or to support foreign military sales, that doesn't inherently imply that there is either will or ability for post-TDM senior American commanders to push those assets out to local militias, whatever their loyalty.

There is 76mm ammo stockpiles, on Navy bases. These were issued to the Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates for their Mark 75 gun system. Currently there is no active 76mm ammo production lines, although one is mothballed for future use.

There are still DOD stockplies of 75mm (M-24), 76mm (M-41) and 90mm (M-47/M-48). The oldest ammo lots date back to the Korean War and these are being sold off via military assistance sales or being dismantled. The production equipment has been sold off or broken up, in the case of 90mm back in 1978.

Source for this is the Congressional Records.

[Olefin]

Many collectors have access to main gun ammo - there are several places in the US where you can pay to fire the main gun on a tank at targets with real rounds. And if you can make mortar rounds (as per canon that mortars and mortar rounds are still in production in many small machine shops) then you can make tank rounds as well, but at a higher effort of course.

Even a shell packed just with high explosives is more than good enough against your average gun truck or improvised armored car or roadblock.

So the assumption that main gun ammo is non-existent or neglible is an incorrect one. It is available if you know where to look for it - and if you can buy a tank, then you know where to get rounds.

Now does that mean they have hundreds of rounds sitting in a warehouse in the back of town - no of course not. But a basic ammo load with maybe a few extra's - yes very likely.

[Olefin]

Thought you guys might enjoy this link to a youtube video showing a guy putting together a round for a 75mm Pack Howitzer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoMbtXMXOIw

Keep in mind - all you need to own live rounds in this country for things like anti-tank guns, tank guns and howitzers is to get the approval of the ATF - I worked with a guy in Georgia who was restoring a 57mm anti-tank gun with a live barrel and already had in his possession ten live rounds that he had to be able to show upon demand to the local ATF representative that he still had all ten of them.

[natehale1971]

Also remembert that decommissioned Rounds are actually pretty easy to recharge if you know what you're doing... there are fish camps here in North Carolina that has old decommissioned large calibur rounds that they attached ropes too to use as barriers for the waiting lines. if you have the empty shell casings they can be reloaded and recharged if you have access to reloading equipment... or have the machinery to make it.

as an example, my family has a full machinery shop that inculdes a portable forge, and lots of scrap metal that can be smelted and used to create new things.

[Legbreaker]

Pretty much the best "home made" round that could be expected would be little more than solid shot. Once you start with fuzes, spin arming, shaped charges, and other more advanced ideas, it goes beyond the capability of most people, even if the tools are available.
Civilians in general don't have a clue how modern weapons work. It's unlikely (although not impossible) there'd be more than one or perhaps two people in a community with experience firing such weaponry - less chance of somebody with first hand knowledge on how they're made in the first place.

[dragoon500ly]

A basic antitank round can be made out of stainless steel, this is basically the round that was used during WWII.

HE rounds require fuses and these are a bit harder to make (okay, quite a bit harder to make). During the 1948 War of Liberation, the Israelis made a home built mortar called a "Davidika" This carried a 30lb charge of TNT for a warhead. So difficult was it for the Israelis to make a relaible mechanical fuse, that they resorted to an older technique. Slow match, i.e. you lit the fuze and then fired the mortar. It worked, but eventually the law of averages caught up and a fuse burned at a much faster rate than expected.

Sure it can be done, but as Wojo can testify, it will be at the expense of reliablity, not to mention assorted body parts...

[Olefin]

"Sure it can be done, but as Wojo can testify, it will be at the expense of reliablity, not to mention assorted body parts... "

and as was shown in the video there are people with the skills to properly load shells - they may be rare

but if Krakow has Wojo making shells then I bet you can find a simliar plant in Twilight 2000 in Chicago or Detroit or Des Moines or wherever - for damn sure New America would have found people like that and gotten their hands on them

and even if all you can make is a stainless steel dart - that will do the job against a bank armored car for sure - or right thru the engine block and the armor around it of a gun truck

thus the idea of a Home Guard or militia unit being equipped with tanks that have shells is a very real idea for the game

[Legbreaker]

Sure, it's possible, but likely in most cases?
I think not.

As a GM, it's up to them to make a case by case decision of course, based on a number of factors which only apply in their game world. All we here can talk about (unless specifically mentioned or implied in the books) are general situations which may, or may not apply.

[Olefin]

I disagree with you Legbreaker on it being unlikely - but it depends on the country

if we are talking countries with lots of old tanks either in storage or in the hands of collectors then its actually very likely to find Home Guard or militia units with working tanks and shells to arm them

US - Very likely - lots of older tanks in the hands of collectors, ATF allows shells to be bought legally and there is a lot of knowledge in this country about creating shells - tanks could have from half to a full basicl load of shells on a very common basis

Great Britain - likely - again lots of older tanks in the hands of collectors - shells would be harder to get so most likely any tanks found would have very few shells unless they were newly made

France - same as Great Britain

Canada - similar to Great Britain but may have more shells due to trade from whats left of the US

China - likely - large amounts of older tanks in stockpiles as well as shells - which could be raided by local militia groups or issued legally by the govt or whats left of it to sanctioned Home Guard units

Soviet Union - again likely due to the huge amount of tanks and shells in stockpiles all over the country -

Places where its unlikely

Japan - very few tanks and almost no collectors of tanks there

Korea - same as above

Eastern European countries - likely that they have tanks that could have been captured from the Soviets or the US or were put back in running order that were abandoned - unlikely that any tanks are from collectors as not allowed in Warsaw Pact countries

So if you are running a game based in the UK you may find a militia unit with an old Centurion tank but it may only have three or four shells

while in the US they could have a couple of Stuarts and a Sherman and full loadouts

now that doesnt mean they are everywhere - but a lot more common here in the US than anywhere else except perhaps China and the Soviet Union

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Now does that mean they have hundreds of rounds sitting in a warehouse in the back of town - no of course not. But a basic ammo load with maybe a few extra's - yes very likely.

Very likely? I just can't buy that. I'm not saying that no ammo would be available for any obsolete tanks, but I am saying that if an old tank is in the hands of a non-Regular Army unit and a long way from any known compatible ammo storage sites, it's more likely than not that it has either very little ammo available or none.

We are talking about a role playing game though. You can suspend disbelief all you like. If the story is advanced by a local State Guard or militia unit having a WWII era tank still running and a full load of main gun ammo, that's great. That is likely in a few rare cases. But if I was a player in a game where every second State Guard unit across the nation was running a couple of obsolete tanks and the main gun ammo never seemed to run out, my ability to suspend disbelief would be sorely tested.

Looking at it from another angle, what a great idea for a CONUS adventure. The PCs are tasked by a local CIVGOV or MILGOV commander to visit a distant militia or State Guard unit that's running one or more old MBTs that are very short on main gun ammo. The PCs are given limited authority to engage in negotiations with the State Guard commander who has made inquiries regarding sourcing some old main gun ammo, which the PC's commander has some stocks of. The State Guard commander has something that the PC's commander could definitely use so they do have a bargaining position. On the other hand, the PC's commander would very much like to get his hands on one or more old MBTs. A terrific opportunity for some non-combat role playing. If the PCs are smart they could leave everybody involved, including themselves, in a win-win position. Or they could choose a darker path and try to swindle the State Guard commander out of some valuable assets.

At the end of that sort of adventure you can end up with a unit armed with old MBTs and adequate, if not plentiful, main gun ammo and it all makes perfect sense.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that the US with it's relatively lax weapons laws (compared with the majority of civilised countries) is going to have a higher proportion of ammunition available. However a 50+ year old Sherman with a full load of 75mm High Explosive (HE), White Phosphorous (WP), Armour Piercing Capped (APC), Armour Piercing (AP), Smoke (SMK), Chemical (CHEM), and/or High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) is just too unbelievable.

SOME rounds, sure, but only the basic types of solid penetrator (APC being a possibility) - the others are sure to be rare in the extreme. IF a community/organisation does happen to have a full ammo load, you can bet there won't be many/any explosive rounds in the mix, especially if the vehicle has seen combat.

Machinegun ammo on the other hand will be plentiful, provided the required belt link is available.

[natehale1971]

this is aggrivating... i had a good post ready to go, and now i can't find it...

today i contacted three friends aboiut this. One is an engineer and blacksmith up in Canada who was the armorer for the Roman Legion reinactor unit he was part of. He made all their swords, shields, armor and spears...hes the one who made my American Patriot kite-type sheild that can stand up to small arms fire...

He was telling me what it would take teo recharge and get old AFV brought back up to combat capable assets. Some he said would be easy to get back up and running but would be more morale building units more than anything else.... namely setting them in the town square, and having them supported by large anti-armor guns (to make the main gun of the tank look as if it can fire and destroy appraching attacker unit).

The support with light Mortars with snipers equipmented with anti-tank or anti-material rifles would go a long way to make said AFV capable of dealing with any criminal element coming your way.

It's the determened raiders who you'd have to come up with a plan on how to deal with them. Take Kevin Cosners post-apoc movie "The Postman"... a force like that would need to be dealt with in a way that completely wipes them out, tricks are good to get them over extened... but you still need to make sure the ambush you are getting them into will be a tpk...

The Home Guard would have a high concentration of the older vets, working with the Law Enforcement, Emergency Services and the like... they are the ones who you want to be the most visible of the defenders. They are the police and peacekeepers whom are responsible for keeping the peace. watching for troiubles and keeping people in the communit calm and living their lives in a manner that won't get them selves into a polce where they would get themselves killed.

The Militia units would be the romers who go out and patrol the borders, do the recon and scouting missions to keep the community informed aboiut what is going on in their region. take the way that the people in the TV Show Jericho used the Jericho Rangers. they were part scouts, part spys, part special warfare operators... they dealt with threats as far from home as possible... they gathered intelligence and brough it back home so that the community leadership could do the right thing.

The creation of a militia engineering unit whose main job would be to construct all of the fortifications and create the kill and free-fire zones... to build ambush traps and the like... Constrcution vehicles would also be able to be modified into lightly armored combat vehicle.

i wish i still had all i ahd written out. the info on what the three guys i talked to tonight would be amazin gto share.

having Gunsmiths, blacksmiths and engineers working with military veteran armorers would be able to create, build or refurbish the recovered collection AFV... Depending on the facilities they have available.. they could turn an older armory into a factory producing munitions, spareparts, refurbished vehicles, body armor and the like.

It all just goes to what they have acces to... so i am working on a set of tables of community resources.

Anyone who wants to help out building the tables, please let me know... and when we get them written up, we'l be abl to post them here and maybe get them into the fanzine.

[dragoon500ly]

The critical shortfall in any kind of ammo manufacturing is the presence of a a decent machine shop. Herein lies the rub, most machine shops rely on deliveries of material, they don't maintain stockpiles. Its a great idea to smelt material, but machine shops don't smelt, they fabricate.

So at the very least, our local militia would need access to a machine shop, trained personnel, a foundry, raw material and above all, a source of power.

I hate to say this, but I truely feel that any town with a combination of all of this would be the exception and not the rule.

[schnickelfritz]

Ammunition? For the 90mm in the M26/46/47/48 & M56 Scorpion (threw that one in for laughs), you might get some practice and a small quanitity of semi-moldy live rounds from some storage site..somewhere. Those familiar with them could comment bettor on that.

For most anything alse, the ammunition would be largely home brewed, probably using the services of local chemists and machinists.

That includes the 75mm and 76mm from the M4/M18 and 3 inch from the M10, 75mm from the M3 GMC, and 75mm from a variety of WW2 German pieces (except for the L70 on the Mark 5 and JgPz IV/L70, all ballistically similar).

Think it can't be done? Shaped charge munitions are nothing new and industrial/military explosives can and will be located.

In many cases, that will involve disassembling military rounds for other ordnance, most likely. Not a job I'd want, but desperate times...

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvncpT4EVzQ

That's a 90mm T8 AT Gun..most of the footage I've seen involves solid shot the owner made himself using old brass casings.

There are 57mm M1/6pdr AT guns out there firing solid shot too. They had one on "Lock n Load with R.Lee Ermey"

For what you need to do...knock out some bank armored car or M-113, you don't need tungsten core anything at these calibers....4140 pre-hardened or even soft will do the job just fine.

An example and/or cutaway training round would work well as an example for sizes of the projectile.

Before some of you have a fit over some outfit/municipality having a pile of ammo for their 57mm/75mm/90mm because they have a source for explosives and a talented machine shop, owners of such guns (self propelled or towed) would be certainly limited in how many casings and therefore rounds they could make.

Unless you have some collector with a full load of deac 37mm rounds for their M5 Staurt / M8 Greyhound for show putposes....seen that at a show at least once.

I see no situation where a town could just shell a biker gang willy-nilly. It would be fun to watch, though.

Not was much fun as a quad 50 chopping them to bits though, but that's just me!

However, I really wouldn't want to be some NA kook ordering his armored car(s) up only to see it(them) take 90mm steel solid shot right through the grill. Ouch.

Of course, sourcing ammunition (90mm cannon or 105mm howitzer most likely) or parts for a cannon or tank could be a nice mini adventure in itself.

Are live cannons from private/museum sources possible in the US? Umm, yes.

Are they more of a threat because all you've got are a dozen or so rounds for it? Yes to that as well.

My $.05

Dave

[natehale1971]

Blacksmithing equipment can be pretty easily acquired or built... if you have someone who knows how to do it. Community Colleges and Tech Schools are great places to get the materials you'd need if there isn't a fully stocked up machine shop, automotive grages and the like.

several national guard armories have faclities for repairwork on AFV, they have materials for working on the weapons maintained in the stockpiles there...

It all takes is time to gather everything you need, and then it takes more time for getting the work on refurbishing decommssioned weapons, eqiupment and gear started. things would go faster if the tech school teachers and a good number of students are still in the area to become the core of the people doing the work under the supervision of highly trained engineers, armorers, gunsmiths and blacksmiths,

It takes time to get these things set up... and it takes time to do the kind of work needed.

Which makes the adpotion of orphaned weapons, equipent and vehicles of raiders by defenders all the more important for any communiity.

Home Guard being the most public face of the community defenders, especially since tney would be law enforcement and keeping the peace with the remaining police, fire & rescue/emergency services personnel combined with much of the Veterans in the community whom are to old or phyiscally unable to go out in the field being the very core of the Home Guard...

the local miliita units would be your rough and ready types who would have alot of hunters, physically able vets, boyscouts and the like whose greatest strenght would be their mobility and their extensive knowledge of the area of the surrounding territory while they preform their patrols, set up ambush zones and the like.. keeping the smaller threats as far away from the community, and when the find something they can't deal with... to aleart the Home Guard to get ready for a fight...